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1. Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:39:16 UTC Hallå Kitteh

   • Danyl Strype
   @strypey No, it's a verified theory based on the correct assumption that vaccinated people kill more pathogens than untreated people.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 08-May-2017 16:11:18 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Danyl Strype
     Why aren't the left voting? Maybe it's years of people like me saying "whoever you vote for, the government wins"? I'm deeply disturbed :{
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   • sten0 ✅ (sten0se@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 08-May-2017 16:29:43 UTC sten0 ✅

     • Danyl Strype
     • Rysiekúr (old account)

     @rysiek @strypey

     For me (left leaning but welcome any system that suits needs at the time) it's a mix of "there is no decent option" and "let them burn 🔥 /feel the wrath of their piss-poor decision" with a dash of "two faces of the same shitcoin"

     Desperate change is needed and, with state of society/culture/education, massive pain seems to be a needed catalyst.

     Along lines of:

     https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pirate-bay-founder-peter-sunde-i-have-given-up

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   • sten0 ✅ (sten0se@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 08-May-2017 16:58:58 UTC sten0 ✅

     • Danyl Strype

     @strypey Think he's a bit "ride or die" on his opinion/theory, maybe even exaggerating to make the point (can't speak for him) but the underlying point seem to ring at least somewhat true.

     "But stop treating internet like it's a different thing and start focusing on what you actually want your society to look like. We have to fix society, before we can fix the internet. That's the only thing."

     Right now our focus is:

     Make all the money regardless of cost or actual value of product

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   • Rysiekúr (old account) (rysiek@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 08-May-2017 17:39:24 UTC Rysiekúr (old account)

     • Danyl Strype

     @strypey "Best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is *now*"

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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 10-May-2017 08:16:16 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey What's the misrepresentation? He didn't fudge the data, come to a faulty conclusion and ruin people's lives for years, which still isn't over?
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 10-May-2017 23:21:40 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey I don't know that there is a general view of him as an anti-vaxxer, he has never been campaigning with Jenny McCarthy or anything, just that his paper was the main instigating factor behind the massive meme cluster that starts with mercury supposedly being the cause of "the rise of autism", the supposed link between autism and vaccines and the avalanche of misinformation and suffering that has spread from there, and that anti-vaxxers up until quite recently were citing him left and right as proof that Vaccines Are Bad.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 10-May-2017 23:22:51 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @strypey @natecull No, it doesn't. Vaccine research is well aware that vaccines are not 100% effective, which is why the calculated required immunization rate for herd immunity to be in place is different for different viruses and vaccines.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 10-May-2017 23:23:23 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @strypey @natecull According to measured fact, that is how vaccinations work, yes.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 10-May-2017 23:27:38 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @strypey @natecull That does not follow. The immune system does not stop the bacterium or virus from doing damage, it seeks it out and destroys it. If having fevers and swelling counts as part of the noticeable sickness, it's possibly that having a fortified immune system would make you appear to be "more sick" at a given rate of a pathogen in your body.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 06:32:51 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey It is the universal view, and the discussion you linked to doesn't contradict it.
     
     Vaccines work by stimulating the body to prepare a defense against a certain infection. The stimulation may be more or less effective, the defense may be more or less effective, it may or may not eradicate the pathogen, and if done with a live pathogen it has been known to occasionally spread the disease to unvaccinated people.
     
     But there is no other accepted view for how vaccines work than that they may train the body to produce antibodies, except where "vaccine" might be used in some kind of wider sense of preventive care by administering substances, which I think I've seen in articles sometimes. But an innoculation with a pathogen or an imitation of a pathogen works as I just described.
     
     I don't see a plausible model for how a more easily triggered and effective immune system would allow for carrying *more* of the pathogen. I would be happy to be corrected if a credible source had come up with one.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 06:37:08 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Well, his research was anti a certain vaccine, and it did give rise to a general anti-vaccine movement. But I agree that calling him an anti-vaccine person in general is slightly misleading. He is anti-not-profitable-for-himself.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 06:42:10 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @strypey @natecull Yes, but preventing infections that can be prevented with vaccines is such an easy thing to do that it's ridiculous not to do it, in those cases where the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.
     
     Yes, no vaccines are 100% effective and 100% risk-free. The ones in the standard schedule are much more effective than they are a risk.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 06:46:22 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @strypey @natecull I agree that this is an important distinction.
     
     More generally the distinction between "X would not be most appropriately handled on the Y jurisdictional level" and "I hate humans/children/poor people/X".
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 08:03:50 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @natecull @strypey Anti-vacc is on both sides of the spectrum: Hard right is afraid of the government, hard left is afraid of corporations, and both accuse the two of being in bed together.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 08:06:19 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Nate Cull
     @natecull @strypey http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-candidate-jill-stein-anti-vaccine/ makes it pretty clear to me.
     
     The notion apparently comes mainly from an AMA where she said she wasn't anti-vacc? And then people latched on to some detail and blew it out of proportion. Is there an Oliver clip? I'll look at it.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 11-May-2017 08:09:16 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Constance Variable
     • Nate Cull
     @lambadalambda @strypey @natecull They aren't! They're just taking it and running with it.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 12-May-2017 08:29:37 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey He didn't act to start a movement, but his bungled research and the conflation of autism and vaccination seeded a movement where there previously was none, just a general variation in trust in the risk analysis and a few fringe elements.
     
     The scientific community and the political establishment are not blindly recommending vaccination at every point, the vaccines in the standard schedule are those that are considered markedly more beneficial than risky.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 12-May-2017 08:33:02 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Ah, I see I misread your original comment. You said:
     
     > the greater immune response would allow them to carry a population of the bacteria without getting noticeably sick
     
     I read:
     
     > the greater immune response would allow them to carry a *greater* population of the bacteria without getting noticeably sick
     
     So yes, a vaccinated person can be a carrier. I'm not sure where that is going.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 12-May-2017 08:37:54 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Annah
     @maiyannah @strypey I think the question is meant to put into question the whole concept of herd immunity.
     
     Here's why herd immunity works: If you get infected and have already been vaccinated, you're less likely to go into fully developed disease, and therefore less likely to develop symptoms that often aid the spread of the disease. Also, you are likely to eliminate or reduce your pathogen population faster than an unprepared person would.
   • Stefanie Schulte (stefanieschulte@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Friday, 12-May-2017 12:50:49 UTC Stefanie Schulte

     • Danyl Strype

     @strypey @clacke Something like this? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub3/full (I'm no expert, though.)

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   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 14-May-2017 10:22:25 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Stefanie Schulte
     @stefanieschulte just to be clear, I am sceptical about patented, corporate-produced pharmaceuticals generally (drugs *and* other products)
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:10:51 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Antanicus
     @antanicus @strypey http://www.alltrials.net/news/funders-agree-to-who-standards/
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:15:26 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Annah
     @maiyannah @strypey Of course it is possible. Reporting on the flu every year talks about how effective vaccine X is against strain Y.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:16:50 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Annah
     @strypey @maiyannah Herd immunity, again, is a scientific concept. If you are insulted by the implication that you are an animal, too bad.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:17:37 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey No, but it was reinforced and spread. It wasn't an international movement. Now there are web sites and activists in all languages.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:19:32 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey There have been people skeptical against vaccines, specifically and generally, reasonably and unreasonably, ever since vaccines appeared, yes. There wasn't a movement that went as high up as the President of the USA. Especially after vaccines proved their efficacy and became standard.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:21:24 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey I agree that clinical research has problems! Isn't that amazing! That's not unique to vaccines, though. Or even to clinical research.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:29:20 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey The problems with clinical studies are concerning the introduction of new vaccines. For vaccines already on the market were introduced under lower standards.
     
     When it comes to vaccines that have been around for decades, their effectiveness and risk cannot be hidden. The numbers before and after introduction are astounding and cannot be attributed to improved hygiene. Side-effects are reported continually.
     
     We even have small societies of vaccine deniers that provide nice control groups and have recurring outbreaks of diseases otherwise almost eliminated. If herd immunity doesn't work, how come these outbreaks don't affect those people in the general community who are unvaccinated for medical reasons?
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:31:26 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     • Antanicus
     @strypey @antanicus There is some serious conspiracy theory mining going on if you think the locations of outbreaks are a coincidence.
     
     I don't believe vaccination rates in general are declining at any alarming rate, at least not in Sweden. But there are enclaves where children are subjected to unnecessary suffering due to the wilful ignorance of their parents.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:33:25 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey There's a problem here: Once a vaccine is in general use because it has been deemed effective, it isn't ethical to refrain from treatment.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:36:33 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey The combinatorial explosion of testing every vaccine for interactions with every other vaccine makes it unfeasible. Is it plausible that having antibodies for one illness interacts badly with receiving another vaccine?
     
     Regarding receiving multiple vaccines at once compared to spacing them out, it hasn't been shown to have any issues. I haven't read the primary materials, because I don't have a medical degree. There are probably studies showing both this and that, and only the scientific community at large can judge which ones are relevant.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:37:00 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Likewise.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 05:44:23 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     • Stefanie Schulte
     @strypey @stefanieschulte Unfortunately, government-produced products have their own problems, and some of the same problems. A lot of the anti-"Big Pharma" propaganda these days talks about folk remedies as if the solution to flawed science with skewed incentives is to eliminate science altogether and go with the gut, rather than improving the existing system, like Ben Goldacre wants to do.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:36:05 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Your hypothesis that herd immunity doesn't work is weak, given that local outbreaks of, say, measles doesn't silently spread throughout the whole country and infect people in vaccinated areas.
     
     People with a medical reason to not vaccinate shouldn't vaccinate. They are the ones who need protection from the people who can vaccinate.
     
     Clusters of non-vaccination near certain religious and anthroposophical centers puts them at risk and there is nothing they can do to defend themselves except leave.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:38:40 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Finding and verifying a natural remedy is science. SBM is a specific organization within the general science skepticism movement.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:45:16 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Yes, for a specific article. This is nice for uncovering shoddy reporting, but knowing what articles are generally considered trustworthy, are relied upon and verified by other studies etc, is a part-time job.
     
     Sort of like how reading an RFC won't tell you if that particular protocol is actually in use and has reliable implementations, except several times more complex.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:46:36 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Priests might be well-versed in the state of the art of theology. Scientists are well-versed in the state of the art of their field. The only difference is that one is directly tied to reality.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2017 15:52:41 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     @strypey Consider this: As a simplified model and in the space between the extremes, the growth and spread of a pathogen within a person and from person to person is a power law.
     
     If the base is above 1 you have an epidemic. If the base is below 1 you have something that is spreading, but is receding as the existing victims recover (or, in the worst case, die). The base doesn't have to be reduced to 0 for a vaccine to help vaccinated and unvaccinated.