Conversation

Notices

1. Bob Mottram (bob@primatemind.info)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Sep-2016 06:16:07 UTC Bob Mottram
   I'd day that Hubzilla is a significantly better system than gnusocial, enabling some real privacy especially if you host your own node. The only down side is that there are fewer people using it.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்) (arunisaac@social.systemreboot.net)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Sep-2016 08:43:08 UTC Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)

     in reply to
     Have you read https://indieweb.org/monoculture ? According to that article, systems like #hubzilla, #gnusocial, #diaspora might classify as monocultures that fail to interoperate with other systems, and force everybody to run the same software on their servers. Thoughts on this?
     
     PS: I am aware that gnusocial does have a level of interoperability with other similar projects. But, I have no idea about diaspora and hubzilla.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Bob Mottram (bob@primatemind.info)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Sep-2016 11:38:17 UTC Bob Mottram

     in reply to

     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @arunisaac hubzilla came from Friendica, and Friendica interoperates with a lot of things. What was found was that the price for interoperability was a broken privacy model.
     
     What's missing for all of these things is an open standard protocol for private and public communications. I think that was suggested at the very beginning of the Diaspora project (define a protocol first, then build something around it), but that's not the way they went.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்) (arunisaac@social.systemreboot.net)'s status on Tuesday, 06-Sep-2016 14:37:50 UTC Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)

     in reply to
     The #indieweb uses #microformats such as h-entry and h-card to facilitate inter-operation between websites. I like the idea, and am beginning to implement it on my blog.
     https://indieweb.org/POSSE
     
     I notice that #gnusocial is marked up with these microformats. #hubzilla, I haven't tried yet.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 03:39:52 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @arunisaac broad consensus on open standards for social apps is a wicked problem, because it has both technical and social aspects
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 03:41:17 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @arunisaac is a stewardship body for social web standards needed? See my blog comment when Diaspora got funded:
     http://qttr.at/1ho4
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Bob Mottram (bob@primatemind.info)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:38:53 UTC Bob Mottram

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @arunisaac I think there has been some attempt at a W3C standard, but I know that Mike McGirvin (Hubzilla) has no faith in that. Anything implemented needs to be able to define which users can see or interact with what content, otherwise you end up with systems which are public only but of no value for private communications.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:46:05 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @arunisaac @mike I'm not convinced it makes sense to do both publishing and private comms in the same tool. Opposite requirements
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:47:33 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @mike @bob @arunisaac I think we need web standards for social *media* (publishing) and separate standard(s) for social *networking* (comms)
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:56:33 UTC Constance Variable

     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @arunisaac @bob @mike I only see one side of the discussion, but OStatus should cover both of these things.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:56:56 UTC Danyl Strype

     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @mike @arunisaac the problem I see is that the publishing functions are, by nature, security weaknesses in the private functions
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 10:57:29 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @mike @bob @arunisaac and the careful technical work required to protect privacy makes for kludgy publishing tools
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 11:04:30 UTC Danyl Strype

     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @mike @arunisaac to be specific; private coms tools with no publishing functions *cannot* make things public by user accident OR attack
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:32:08 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @arunisaac "Broken" is Mike's loaded term. His ideas of nomadic identity and encrypted delivery didn't work well with other systems.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:35:57 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @bob @strypey @arunisaac There is a WG, and they just released CRs of #MicroPub and #ActivityStreams2 and #ActivityPub is in the works.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:42:20 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @arunisaac #micropub defines client-server interactions for the indieweb: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/23/2/micropub-cr
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:57:50 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @arunisaac #activitystreams2 and #activityvocabulary define social objects like people and actions, and how they fit together.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:58:29 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @arunisaac #activitystreams2 https://e14n.com/evan/note/kDqyDcwySL-rBoVhYztj2A
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 14:59:43 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @arunisaac #activitypub defines client-server and server-server interactions for #activitystreams2 and covers access privacy.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 15:04:17 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @arunisaac #activitypub https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ might be a CR in two weeks: http://qttr.at/1hp1 (identi.ca)
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 15:07:28 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     • Constance Variable
     @lambadalambda @strypey @mike @bob @arunisaac OStatus has no sense of a private conversation or message, only public messaging.
   • Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 15:19:06 UTC Constance Variable

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @clacke @arunisaac @bob @mike @strypey I think private messaging could be easily added to Ostatus, just as a salmon to a special PM endpoint.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 16:28:40 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     • Constance Variable
     @lambadalambda @clacke @mike @bob @arunisaac maybe but is that the best approach? Why does OStatus need to cut grass and make smoothies?
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 16:31:52 UTC Constance Variable

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @bob @clacke @arunisaac @mike It's a logical approach that could easily be added to all existing Ostatus implementations and would solve the problem. I don't see what's wrong with it.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 16:33:42 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     • Constance Variable
     @lambadalambda @clacke @mike @bob @arunisaac is there an existing standard / protocol that could be used instead for instances that want PM?
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 16:34:19 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     • Constance Variable
     @clacke @mike @bob @arunisaac @lambadalambda if not, could a new, separate standard be defined for the PM functions, so it's optional?
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 16:50:28 UTC Constance Variable

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Danyl Strype
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     @strypey @arunisaac @bob @clacke @mike half of ostatus is optional already... Oh well, whatever people will actually implement will be the de facto standard, anyway.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 17:20:30 UTC Danyl Strype

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • mike
     • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)
     • Constance Variable
     @lambadalambda @clacke @mike @bob @arunisaac if there's docs, and a majority agree on what they should say, isn't that a standard? ;)
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்) (arunisaac@social.systemreboot.net)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 19:41:45 UTC Arun Isaac (அருண் ஐசக்)

     • Danyl Strype
     I like #IndieWeb too. At this point, it seems to be primarily a developer's playground. But when more CMSs and publishing platforms support the IndieWeb #microformats, it might be more accessible for lay people. In fact, I think there already is an IndieWeb plugin for #WordPress, and even an IndieWeb native #CMS called #Known. https://withknown.com/
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • mike (mike@loadaverage.org)'s status on Sunday, 25-Sep-2016 20:43:23 UTC mike

     in reply to

     • Danyl Strype
     Unix has a 'public' (e.g. 'others') bit. Are you suggesting that Unix should scrap this or make everything public; because of the conflict with trying to provide working permissions?
     
     Yes, you certainly need to work harder on your security when you mix public and private in the same system. That doesn't mean you have to limit the functionality. You just need to fix the bugs and over time bake the permissions into the 'kernel' of your app so that it is harder for kiddies in userland to screw them up.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • mike (mike@loadaverage.org)'s status on Monday, 26-Sep-2016 00:46:57 UTC mike

     in reply to
     The way that these W3C social initiatives have played out is that they start by mandating a protocol to solve everybody's problems. Everybody rubber stamps the protocol and then we start building applications based on that protocol. What they're missing is the first step - defining the problems that need to be solved. So far we're on about the 5th or 6th attempt to define a protocol to send messages back and forth. We've been sending messages back and forth since the 70s - it isn't that hard. Defining how you interact with privacy and permissions and *differences in permission models* is bloody hard. Every project has a different permission model. This is where the W3C needs to start if they ever want to be taken seriously. It's entirely possible (as we've discovered) that the standard protocols don't cut it when faced with these requirements. You need a different protocol which is desig…
     Temporary Marjolein repeated this.