Strypey
I'm against the initiation of violence, and deeply disturbed by Putin's autocratic leadership, but to play the devil's advocate...
What's the difference between Russia invading the Ukraine and the US invading Afghanistan in the early 2000s (which Biden voted for)?
* Ukraine is on Russia's border, Afghanistan is no where near the US
* Russia actually declared war, instead of pretending it's some kind of cross-border policing action
Tek resources? Yipe!
@strypey One big difference is that the US didnβt claim to own Afghanistan.
Tim Makarios
@strypey
Did Russia declare war? I thought Putin just announced a "special military operation". Or has there been a declaration of war since then?
For the record, I'm no fan of either war, or the lies pretending that they're not wars.
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MBE Architects
JC Brand
Do you think the USA would just let it slide if Mexico or Canada joined a military alliance with Russia or China, one that was founded with the explicit goal of containing America?
JC Brand
Read up on the Cuban missile crisis if you want an idea of what the US will do. They threatened nuclear war and got quite close to executing that threat.
brie
JC Brand
Thanks for the sarcasm.
Putin wasn't going to wait until it's too late.
JC Brand
Not just Afghanistan, but also Iraq and forced regime-change in Libya. And then a decade of drone bombings all over ME and North Africa.
And then repeatedly poking the bear by expanding NATO eastwards. Putin said Ukraine in NATO or with nukes is a red line.
America likes to call South America and even Africa its "backyard", but thinks it's appropriate to antagonize Russia right on its border.
Very tragic, and I'm truly sad that war has broken out now.
brie
brie
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Sexy Moon
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Sexy Moon
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NixiΠ
@Moon @clacke @strypey this whole discussion wreaks of political correctness. @strypey posed hypothetical questions. most responses seem like the threat, Β»you better support the usa or else.Β« this makes the conversation i had with a religious person that sees the cia, fbi, nsa as divine tools committing necessary evils seem adult. this is the failure to scientific inquiry in these times: the fear of answering damning questions.
in addition, what may donbas have to do with this decision to war?
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Strypey
@clacke
> The reaction against the invasion of Ukraine is correct, the problem is how much the world accepted the invasion of Afghanistan.
This is the point I was making, yes. I thought the criticisms in the first paragraph made that pretty clear. Guess not?
NixiΠ
@mbearchitects @strypey chernobyl was 40 years ago? still cannot live there. vietnam was 50 years ago. agent orange still active in the soil.
Strypey
@clacke
Guess it's my own fault for provoking a pandemic-stressed and fearful public by trying to put current events into a historical perspective. The reply that really boggled my mind was the one about the invasion of Afghanistan being 20 years ago. As if that's a long time ago in geopolitics. Comparisons with Vietnam were common in the 2000s and I don't remember anyone implying that was invalid because Vietnam was ages ago *shakes head in disbelief*.
Strypey
@clacke
Oh no I got that, was referring to the heated reactions in other replies, which I assumed you'd seen as you replied to some of them. Many of them seemed to be assuming I was defending the invasion, for reasons I can't begin to fathom.
Strypey
@mbearchitects
I'd be very surprised to be the only person on the planet to see the parallels between two superpowers launching unprovoked invasions of sovereign countries, in violation of international law. I'm not that smart.
MBE Architects
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Strypey
@clacke
> Correction: Russia didn't declare war, Putin announced "I decided to conduct a special military operation"
I stand corrected. That'll teach me not to repeat headlines from corporate news media as if they're reliably factual.
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Strypey
... which I don't believe are justified when considering the US invaded more than one sovereign country this century, without any preceding military attack from that country's armed forces.
Strypey
My post comparing the invasion of Ukraine with the US invasion of Afghanistan has raised a few hackles. It was made in anticipation of comments like this ...
"This is the most threatening circumstances the world's faced since the end of the Second World War... "
Aaron Wolf
@strypey I was pondering why it felt different to me (though I think the reaction overall has been disproportionate in comparison). I think it's because Ukraine ostensibly had regular democratically-elected leadership.
There are older cases of the U.S. overthrowing legitimately-elected governments, but not recently. Iraq and Afghanistan were not that sort of situation.
I find it *extra* troubling when a democratically-elected government is attacked even though all war is awful
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Tim Makarios
@strypey
Yeah, "war" fits better in headlines, captions, etc. But what they put in quote-marks in the text and attribute to Putin is "special military operation". Everyone else is calling it what it is, though, which is a war.
Strypey
@TMakarios The news media is full of headlines saying so. For example:
I must admit I didn't fact check that before posting.
Strypey
Seems I'm not the only person seeing the parallels between Putin's invasion of Ukraine and George W Bush's invasions:
"In other words, the mindset of Putin in Ukraine in 2022 seems very much like the delusionary worldview held by US President George W. Bush in 2003 with regard to Iraq. Bush was another imperial invader who thought he would be greeted as a liberator, by a grateful people throwing roses."
- #GordonCampbell, 2022
Strypey
@bsmall2
> Can Bush be seen as worse
I don't think so. Putin's claim that Ukraine needs to be "denazified" and "demilitarized" are no more honest about the real reasons for the invasion than Bush's were. Those responsible for Russian defence may have legitimate concerns about NATO involvement in Ukraine. The US may have had legitimate national security concerns about the rise of militant fundamentalism in the Middle East. Neither justifies launching unprovoked war against sovereign countries.
bs2
Can Bush be seen as worse because he used the pretext of Weapons of Mass Destruction to invade Iraq, and the illusionary connections to 9/11 ? It seemed like he didn't take the pretext seriously himself, when he pretended to look for them under a podium during a speech later. Then his buddy's Halliburton corporation made a lot of money off the fiasco/catastrophe.. The Nato expansion concerned might be a more substantial pretext given the history of W. European invasions of Russia... @strypey
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Caleb James DeLisle
@clacke @strypey @bsmall2
Biolabs story has a fairly good chance of being real, esp. since until recently there was mention of something like this on US embassy website. Make no mistake, Putin is the bad guy here, but watch what he says b/c in trying to justify himself he may reveal some actual dirt on the west.
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welcome, new invasion haters!
the US is not the only nuclear-capable nation in NATO
even if one lumps the UK's capabilities in with those of the US, France arguably retains a deeper but also freer-standing skill level than either (eg, practical capabilities running reprocessing facilities)
given recent large policy shifts elsewhere, plus the history of French independence on nuclear policy, NATO & Russia, it bears watching
Strypey
@deejoe True. But I think the point @clacke was making is that the likely involvement of the global hegemon ups the stakes more than does the neighbours getting twitchy.
Strypey
@clacke Fair point. So in a way it's the potential involvement of the US (via NATO) that makes it different.
Santa Claes πΈπͺππ°π
Fitheach
@clacke
That is the art of detachment. The purpose of proxy wars is to strengthen or extend the sphere of influence.
NATO miscalculated (or got the timing wrong) with regards to Ukraine. The saving grace for NATO (and possibly everyone else) is that Putin's miscalculation may have been even greater.
Csepp π©Έ
@strypey My 2c: Personally, I would still choose "the West" / USA over Russia or China. It's good to criticize all of them, but it's pretty foolish to pretend they are all equally bad.
Heck, Russian and Chinese citizens can't even criticize their own governments.
Csepp π©Έ
@strypey Vladimir Pozner's talk from a few years ago is a good summary IMHO.
https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ
Might be a good idea to stay around for the Q&A section, since that clarifies a few things.
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