@lightweight @clacke I will accept idealistic. The Bible refers to gods liberally, as anything that a society values most. When Moses came down from Mt. Sinai, his people were worshipping a golden calf, a symbol for material wealth. Moses later corrected this by introducing the 10 commandments, the first laws. They introduced a god based on ideals rather than status.

@lightweight @clacke Christian until I was 17, became Atheist during my uni years.

Now I'm 24 and I'm trying to build my character. My grandad told me that he believes in God with all his heart. I've been playing God's advocate to see if I can rationalise his position here.

I think spirituality is correct thinking. Without it, we are animals. Ideals guide spirits to who they want to be. I think this is why Christians worship God, the ideal being.

@lightweight the point of Christianity isn't to give the church power, it's harmony: Everyone aspiring to be like Jesus.

By the way, Jesus criticised the Pharisees, calling them corrupt, like you have.

I think a big part of overcoming the oppressed/oppressor view is spirituality. Seeing people for the content of their character and not their physical appearance.

Evil exists everywhere temptation does. I'll join you in fighting it, but first we need to define what evil is.

@lightweight I agree that religion is about control and subjection. Any society requires a certain amount of them to work. Our society should use a religion that doesn't get in people's way, but still allows us to get along to solve problems.

We can't know what happens after death, but thinking there is an afterlife is one way to remove the fear of death.

I'm personally happy with the Agnostic's "?" answer.

@lightweight I think I agree, being 50/50 agnostic isn't useful. To have meaning, we need to consider what this universe might be for, and/or what we can make it into.

Heaven must be our future for anything to be worth doing.

@clacke @lightweight I think God is an abstract concept, so entirely exists as an idea. I call the ideals you align yourself with your god.

Theism, to me, means to consciously construct a god that has properties you admire, so you become more like that god.

Naïvely, we choose gods that our bodies find, like pleasure or wealth. But overriding that impulse with the God of goodness sets us free.

@lightweight we need something to keep us bound. Without a collective identity, we are going to fall into tribalism. That might be ok, so long as we follow a minimal set of guidelines that keep conflict from happening.

What are those guidelines?, and will they allow us to collaborate enough in order to face our emergencies?

@lightweight I agree that our systems need to hear criticism.

Questioning the norm will always be a social taboo because you're messing with the stability of society. People will respond to it like an attack. The question is what should our norm be?

My answer is "something rooted in Christianity".

@lightweight My view is that we always worship a god, whether we are aware of it or not.

Anyone that wants to improve themselves has a number of qualities they want to obtain. They imagine their future self with these qualities. They imagine an image of their god.

Anyone that wants to survive and have a prosperous life has a number of dangers that they look out for. Addictions and pleasure seeking are things they should hate. These are the things their god hates (sin).

@clacke morals are subjective, which makes them hard to find and agree to. When you say "less moral", that is only meaningful from your perspective, not a truth.

To be a moral person, you need to know the morals of your society (the people that judge you).

Morals are personified. When collected up, you describe a god.

If atheists want to keep being moral relative to each other and society, they will need a god to keep them aligned.

@lightweight

@lightweight I disagree that people are acting better without religion. With no unified direction, our societies are rudderless. With no unified direction, we are free to choose our own aims, including evil ones. When we choose different aims, our societies split and we collect around our new gods: Have vs have-not, red vs blue, black vs white.

None of these address the real evil in this world. We need cultures to work together, to agree on what's good and who's evil.

@lightweight you can frame religion as oppression, or as the collective agreement to rules and goals. Subjugation is what we need in order to stop evil, like pollution and excessive consumption.

Evil will always exist so long as we have free will. We need to disable dissenters that act out of self interest, and not for the common good. Therefore, we need agreeable definitions of common good and evil, so we can enforce them on everyone.

Without good, evil takes advantage.

@lightweight I'm conflating the terms because I think they are the same. They're both answer the same question, Christianity is just more advanced and abstracted.

Spirituality is required for us to see past our physical features. A spirit can be thought of as the force that inspires a persons actions.

1/2

@lightweight Theism naturally arises from our commonly agreed rules and goals. Goals paint our ideal future, where we all act in a certain way (or number of ways). These commonly-agreed, ideal ways to act become gods. One set of 'good' features arise from all the gods, giving the god of god's: God.

If I had to choose a god, it would be God.

@lightweight I am trying to make myself as clear as possible so you can dismiss my ideas clearly. I feel like I'm cheating a little bit because I feel I'm just naming basic natural phenomena that arise in social structures.

I think we fundimentally agree (be good), you just don't like the terms I'm using.

From my point of view, you're dismissing religion in favour of religion. Can you see the parallels between your world view and what Christianity has been trying to do?

@lightweight not into dogma. Science is Godly.

@lightweight I'm also not into consumerism or excessive capitalism. These forces are what our religion needs to face. How can we make someone feel happier for having less? We need them to feel loved by a divine that blesses them for saving the environment. I guess this could be money...

@lightweight balance is the focus of Tao Te Ching, or "the way". I like it.

healthy, unconscious ecosphere. It sounds like a brainwashed place. Is this in the future when we forget conflict exists?

@lightweight I think our view of the universe should be a personal choice. 1) We don't have any evidence either way, and 2), I believe what we choose to think has a big impact on what we do.

I think God and other theistic inventions naturally arise when societies work together. Every society builds around a set of ideals. If the society values peace, those ideals should be the image of a good person, ideally the ultimate person.

@lightweight our understanding of the world needs to line up, otherwise other people's "rational" views won't line up with your idea of rational.

Christianity is Egalitarian. 'Love thy neighbour' and 'treat others like you want to be treated' come from the Bible.

Do you think a 'scientific christian' could have a rational point of view?