@lightweight the fact good ideas were copied from earlier, also successful, societies is my point. The Bible is a refined document on the best ways for a society to live. I would only consult it with questions that can't be answered with science.

Did you and your prof. disagree on anything in particular?, or was it just taxing to convert his world view to yours?

@lightweight I don't think the Bible prizes faith over evidence:

“The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made both of them.” (Pro 20:12, NASB)

“Differing weights are an abomination to the Lord, And a false scale is not good.” (Pro 20:23, NASB)

The scientific method is for learning about Gods creation, but science will never be able to touch God, since he exists outside our dimensions. You might think it stupid, but it's important when considering what we should do

@lightweight Abraham trusted God when he asked him to sacrifice his only son, but once God saw that Abraham was really going to do it, he stopped him. Abraham trusted God over his own feelings and thoughts, over the life of his only son. God told Abraham that Issac was going to have children, so trusted Issac would have come back to life...but it's still regarding faith over evidence, so I have to say I disagree with that part of the Bible then, or at least that interpretation.

@lightweight I like that song too. I think a common religion is necessary for world peace. I think they develop over time, getting better and better. This is what Christianity is. I like to think I've transcended my childish view of Christianity. It's more of a reference now than the lens I see the world through.

I'm open to other ways of thinking as well, but it's not easy to tell which way of thinking is the best. What does your world stem from?

@lightweight imo, the only way society can be broken is if people don't work together, implying some disagreement on what should be done. If we want society to work together, we need to trust each other and align our goals.

This means rejecting false gods like money (capitalism and consumerism), power, and to some extent, pleasure.

We need a replacement for these gods with something that we all want all people to be. Environmental, loving, self-sacrificial, etc.

@lightweight education is like indocintination for the state religion. With everyone onboard with it, faith in the facts and collective goals, people can start to work together.

What I'm worried by is that it's controlled by the government. Do we really want politicians to define the rules of our religion?

@lightweight a politition and a pastor are about as opposite as you can get, in my mind. A pastor does not have a glamorous life, the good ones act selflessly, that makes them trustworthy.

I'm still not sure if the state should be in control of our religion. Our morals don't come down to a vote, they should be widely accepted. We can't live with morals we can't accept, they need to make sense.

@lightweight they're both community leaders, they both fight for what they claim is right. In fact, it probably is the same job, just from different times in history.

Both appeal to power, and both can be corrupted by it.

A pastor appeals to God, but the politician appeals to popularity. If they work in society's interest, I think they appeal to popularity though appealing to God. But it's better to play the social game to win votes, apparently.

@lightweight a key point is the God of the Bible is more wise than any single human alive. It's faith, but not entirely blind because the Bible has some good tips. And it's very survival proves that it knows something about human society.

It's not self-serving to champion the Bible, it's serving society. It's better than championing your own ideas, which can be corrupted, and cannot be held to account.

@lightweight I agree, a rewrite could be in order. I noticed that Dune was quite reminesent of the Bible story, as was star wars. When we create a new world religion (which will happen if we work it out), it will be carrying the story of the Bible, since it's all we have to go off (and/or other philosophy that eclipses the Bible, but remember - It's pretty old.)

@lightweight you're going to end up with a new religion, similar to Christianity yet probably worse. Whatever you call your moral authority is your god. You are either theistic or nihilistic.

The god you worship is your choice, but we need to agree on some common qualities of him in order to get along. Christianity did this for 2k years.

What you're critising is the system of control built around Christianity. It's not a case for dropping religion, we still need to get along!

@lightweight the real debate is what parts of the Christian god...the 'God'...would you change.

@lightweight I agree that the smaller the better, but none just can't exist. If we want a society that gets along, we need at least the 10 commandments. You can't scientifically derive them, you need to choose and agree on some values. Religion is just software for the mind, since even open source is controlled by someone. (And a "fork" in this case means war)

@lightweight When I brought up the 10, I was really thinking of the don't kill, don't steal, and don't commit adultery. They are (some of) the minimum laws for a society to perpetuate. They're rational, but there is no scientific method that can tell you that life is better than death, ownership and stable marriage are good things, because science has no bias by design. These are values that we all must agree to together.

@lightweight What I'm saying is that these shared values *is* the religion - albeit a very basic one. Society and religion go hand in hand. Without a religion, you have no society.

I very much agree that our values should be based off rational thought and use science where we can. But there are some questions that science can't answer, and they are very hard to answer.

I believe we need to rely on the documented past in order to know what works for us. Ages of trial and error.

@lightweight So religion for you is strictly the worship of God. Ok.

Gods come in many forms: Money, social power, technology; pretty much anything you can dedicate your life to. The reason people worship "the one true God who is in heaven" is because it sets them free of the man-made Gods, which are traps and unreliable. The true God is maximally Good, and abstract beyond our understanding - by definition. Even "concept" falls short.

How do we know if a certain moral or ethic is good?

@lightweight I picture society as a tree, and God as the sun that guides its growth. We, the tree, learn goodness by testing and remember goodness by writing it down. If we can't trust what is written down, the tree shrinks, falls away from God, possibly dies.

This God is not man made, he's part of the spiritual framing of the world. He is who our spirits want to be, personally.

@lightweight Yes, but not unnecessary. He's the direction that we want to grow in. What he is for you is different than what he is for me. Although, since we're both open-source advocates, I really think we can agree on a lot of his features.

@lightweight There's mostly likely an "it", at least. Do you subscribe to string theory or something like that?

I choose "him", because we are born to become our fathers.

God is huge, but he is framed as a personal friend who has introduced himself to you. This is about feeling spiritually connected to the universe, not about society building, imo.

@lightweight I think you have another framing for society and how it grows. I'm optimistic that it draws a parallel with how I see it though...?