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1. Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Thursday, 08-Sep-2016 04:02:40 UTC Danyl Strype
   Self-hosting, free code, server app paradox: if devs set up a user-friendly demo instance, most people will use that instead of self-host
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) and vinzv like this.
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   • Mike Gerwitz (mikegerwitz@social.mikegerwitz.com)'s status on Thursday, 08-Sep-2016 05:33:13 UTC Mike Gerwitz

     in reply to
     @strypey Self-hosting needs to be as simple as running any other program---the user shouldn't have to host it on a "server". And ideally federated, so that the experience doesn't differ between using your instance and their own.
     
     But yes, that is unfortunate indeed.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Thursday, 08-Sep-2016 06:46:37 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz @strypey Federation usually means there is a server to federate with. True P2P distributed systems is where it's at.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Thursday, 08-Sep-2016 06:47:21 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to
     @strypey Probably all demo servers need to self-destruct daily or weekly if you want to encourage self-hosting.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Thursday, 08-Sep-2016 06:48:03 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to
     @strypey But then again "centralized federation" (the identi.ca syndrome) may have value when fighting monoliths. Best vs good, etc.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 00:58:23 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz the problems with "true P2P" include power/ data costs for mobiles, PCs that aren't always on or online, and many more
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 01:01:04 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke that said, if as @mikegerwitz said a "server app" is an app on your PC like any other, it can support both P2P and federated uses
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 01:10:06 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     @clacke self-destructing demo servers make it hard for new projects to get the critical mass of users to benefit from a network effect
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 04:44:45 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz Yes. If it was easy, P2P would have boomed a long time ago. Another biggie: search engine indexability.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 04:45:53 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz Yes. A successful distributed service probably needs to combine the P2P and federated/centralized aspects.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 04:47:17 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to
     @strypey Yes.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 08:05:12 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz good point, though this is more important for public-facing publishing and events than for private comms, file sync etc
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 11:19:24 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz For social networks I believe it's a biggie. When people have public conversations, they add value to the Web.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Friday, 09-Sep-2016 11:22:30 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz When people find discussions, it promotes the network. GNUSocial sometimes provides search hits for me. pump.io never.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 10-Sep-2016 09:34:36 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz I keep thinking about federated search. GS has a search function, as do most web apps. Could a server meta-search them?
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • mangeurdenuage (mangeurdenuage@loadaverage.org)'s status on Saturday, 10-Sep-2016 12:18:51 UTC mangeurdenuage
     Sorry, Lambda is a French term to design generic/normal people without experience in X domain, I thought it meant the same.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 10-Sep-2016 12:21:45 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • mangeurdenuage
     @mangeurdenuage @strypey So, something like lay people?
   • Mike Gerwitz (mikegerwitz@social.mikegerwitz.com)'s status on Saturday, 10-Sep-2016 16:15:52 UTC Mike Gerwitz

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     @strypey @clacke I hadn't given too much thought to search, but it seems like indexing federated systems wouldn't be something too difficult to implement, provided that an indexer deduplicates records and points the user to the authoritative source of the record. If I search for something in i.e. Google, that's one of the major issues: same text on so many separate instances.
     
     P2P/Mesh is more interesting, but could be reduced to a federated search problem if enough data propagates to nodes persistent enough to be discovered by other indexers (e.g. Google). But then the user might be directed to a node that's not online, so what would the fallback be? A cache? Would that cache be centralized? Federated? What should be trusted with such authority? If it's cryptographically signed by the originating node, maybe it won't matter, provided a proper trust model.
     
     If anyone has experience thinking about these things, I'd be curious to know; I haven't done research myself.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 11-Sep-2016 03:12:07 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke good thoughts @mikegerwitz I know 0 about how to implement this but it just seems like letting search remain centralized is unwise
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Bob Mottram (bob@primatemind.info)'s status on Monday, 12-Sep-2016 10:55:33 UTC Bob Mottram

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @clacke @mikegerwitz it has sometimes been said that web search is a fundamentally centralized thing, but given DHTs and such I'm doubtful about that.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 12-Sep-2016 11:38:23 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     • Bob Mottram
     @bob @strypey @mikegerwitz Trusting results is the only issue I see that "requires" centralization. Redundant verification should fix that.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 12-Sep-2016 11:39:52 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz @strypey A central or distributed firehose with some publically-knowable web-readable nodes should be able to index a P2P net.
   • Mikael (mikael@social.umeahackerspace.se)'s status on Monday, 12-Sep-2016 11:44:40 UTC Mikael

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     something like the blockchain servers that software like electrum use
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 12-Sep-2016 11:45:27 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mikael
     @mikael Yes, consensus protocols come to mind.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Tuesday, 13-Sep-2016 06:30:27 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz could something like #yacy or the various orphaned P2P search projects fit into this vision?
     http://qttr.at/1h2o
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
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   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Tuesday, 13-Sep-2016 08:00:47 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz Meta-searching application-specific engines is an interesting idea. Won't help general public visibility though.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Tuesday, 13-Sep-2016 09:46:06 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz I'm imagining something like #yacy using meta-search to populate its index.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
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   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 00:10:43 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz ...or Searx, a meta-search engine licensed under AGPL:
     http://qttr.at/1h45
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Mike Gerwitz (mikegerwitz@social.mikegerwitz.com)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 00:41:36 UTC Mike Gerwitz

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     @strypey Thanks for sharing your research! I think a P2P search is essential, but we also need a way for it to feed into the indexes of the larger centralized search engines that everyone else uses. I hope one day that won't be necessary, but until that time, others need to be able to use it to discover. :(
     
     A standard protocol is also important; free/libre projects are great, but fragmentation will stall this into oblivion.
     
     But I'm optimistic!
     
     cc @clacke
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   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 05:54:51 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @mikegerwitz @clacke agree 100% on open standards but its a chicken/egg problem...
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 05:56:36 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz support for standards emerges from consensus among devs, who often want to hack on their app, not negotiate standards
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   • Danyl Strype (strypey@quitter.se)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 05:58:46 UTC Danyl Strype

     in reply to

     • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
     • Mike Gerwitz
     @clacke @mikegerwitz that's what it looks like from the POV of a novice coder whose contribution to free code so far is evangelism not dev
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Wednesday, 14-Sep-2016 08:57:10 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Mike Gerwitz
     @strypey @mikegerwitz There's a delicate balance involved, between innovation and crystallization. Projects must benefit from standards.