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I don't recall which one of you posted this but I feel like it was @bob: https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
Coming from my anti-capitalist standpoint, I read this article as "centralization is how one runs a business." Most of the author's arguments against federation were about control and competitors (have a look at the Github example).
Regarding the soup of XEPs, there's beauty in the ability to choose between providers or host your own if you're technically inclined. It's a learning process, though.
People are so hung up on instant gratification and companies cater to that, eager to take your money or make money off of you.
Slow down, federate, and learn things.
- MMN-o ✅⃠ likes this.
- Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
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@cmhobbs @bob He says federation->centralization, "[so just centralize]". Others say "[so do true decentralization/p2p]".
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@cmhobbs @bob He explains quite clearly why identity is so important. Federation allows hopping servers, identity allows hopping networks.
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@cmhobbs @bob Have read @mlinksva arguing *for* "centralized federation" (a la identi.ca) rather than against. Still not sure where I stand.
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@clacke @cmhobbs centralised federation seems like a contradiction, although maybe #hubzilla is such a system. Anyone can run a hubzilla server, and you log into other servers via magic auth. The authentication is sufficiently automated that the user doesn't notice and so hubzilla appears to be one giant system.
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@cmhobbs is there a federated alternative to signal/libresignal? Telegram devs promised to release their server side code at least a year ago and still haven't delivered. I don't really know what I should use for group chats.
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@clacke @mlinksva @cmhobbs @bob I met some secushare people IRL the other day. Federation is dead P2P the only way http://qttr.at/1bam
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@bob @cmhobbs That's just federation working very well, and Moxie and others are arguing that federation leads to near-centralization.
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@bob @cmhobbs What I mean by "centralized federation" is what Moxie describes as "a provider that the bulk of people use, with a long tail".
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@clacke @cmhobbs I don't think that federation leads to centralisation, but that some big companies operated the usual "embrace, extend, extinguish" method on email or XMPP.
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@clacke @cmhobbs that's surely a function of the difficulty and expense of running a server with federated systems. I think when that's a lot easier to do that distribution will change.
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@bob @cmhobbs http://about.psyc.eu/Federation has some believable arguments for why federation invites corp takeover: Trust and scalability.
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@bob @cmhobbs I agree. Good #userops weakens the forces of centralization. Projects like #FreedomBox, #Sandstorm etc are very important.
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@clacke @cmhobbs #Freedombone
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@cmhobbs I really liked Moxie's analysis of how broken the certificate authority system is and his response with convergence.io. But his look at the success of his noon federated product only measures by uptake, and it's underpinned by ignorant and apathetic users being happy with something that just works. I guess he has a point, however, all of his users trust is in one company's hands... One entity that could betray everyone with a single fatal action. The guy's company has got to make money, so this is the path they take. Federation on the other hand empowers every single user to make a choice for themselves along the whole way. Damage caused by foul actors should be limited to those under the instances affected. You'd think Marlinspike would go back and read his previous talks on the matter of concentrated control. I still admire the guy, but #wtf man?
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@cmhobbs @bob Super late addition, but I want the cross-linking in place: This was discussed over at http://qttr.at/1gyo (identi.ca) too.
Christopher M. Hobbs
Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)
Bob Mottram
Linux Pirate
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