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1. 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:20:00 UTC 🪦

   ⍼ what does this guy mean

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:53 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://ionathan.ch/2022/04/09/angzarr.html
     the interesting thing is that the original glyph is a zig-zag, which is also indicated by the name, and that's also how the code chart lists the symbol, but if you look at how some fonts render ⍼, it shows as a wavy arrow rather than a zigzag arrow, which I think is a misinterpretation of what it's meant to be since no one knows what it's meant to be

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:54 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Actually... The ISO page lists the document as published in July 1991 but the STIX page as June 1991 so I'm not so sure about that

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:55 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://www.iso.org/standard/17319.html it's 198 Swiss francs lol

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:55 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I think it's actually this https://www.iso.org/standard/17332.html on "public entity sets", that means characters right

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:56 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://webstore.ansi.org/Standards/ISO/ISOIECTR95731988 wtf it's from 1988

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:57 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     It was proposed by AMS STIX because it's here http://www.ams.org/STIX/stixfullr/stixfull-12.html
     idk what ISOAMSA is tho

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:57 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     According to here http://www.ams.org/STIX/bnbranges.html if you look at the link to this page http://www.ams.org/STIX/bnbtable09a.html it's under D97C ⍼ and that's a TR 9573 name so I just need to find what TR 9573 is

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:58 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qgooPc3SZVc4ixWMaVbN6L5lKEsEQAgw/view?usp=drivesdk I found a copy of the standard but the symbol is literally not in there

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:59 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I can't find anything on the justification for its addition into Unicode, but I suspect it has something to do with IEC 61286-2, which is a standard I have no access to without paying lol

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 00:19:59 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     its name is RIGHT ANGLE WITH DOWNWARDS ZIGZAG ARROW, and it's always suspicious when a complex character is named after what it looks like rather than what it's meant to represent

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:09 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     But that would be a silly way to write it. Right angle is obviously this ⦜, and not-right angle should be that with a bar through it like usual

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:09 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     There isn't an explanation for ↯, U+21AF DOWNWARDS ZIGZAG ARROW either, but that's mostly because it's from Unicode 1.0.0 and a lot of what happened before then is kind of lost to time

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:10 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I posted this in twitter but not here I guess. This is the relevant portion of ISO/IEC TR 9573-13:1991 showing the glyph for ⍼ and I have no idea how to continue the hunt bc the trail kind of ends here at this document

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:10 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Wikipedia says downwards zigzag arrow can mean electrolysis or logical contradiction so I suppose this could simply mean "not a right angle"

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:11 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://libgen.gs/edition.php?id=141516185 uwu
     time to delete it from goggle driv

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:11 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     It still doesn't show up through libgen's search tho idk why

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:12 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Okay decrypted. Here it is https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eiii01H3phYGFauu5IZ49iUXZVkhEoLp/view?usp=sharing

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:12 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I should upload this somewhere... libgen maybe?

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:13 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     LMAO I have access through FileOpen and it's DRM'd to the point that I can't even take a screenshot while in the app lol

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:14 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "The ISO/IEC 10036 defines the mechanism where 'font related objects', such as glyphs and glyph collections are registered in a public registry, and given unique identifiers, so that symbols embedded as an image may be distinguished using the identifiers."

     oh yeah this is about the mechanism and likely doesn't have the actual glyphs

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:14 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I think I may need to ask for TR 9573 as well, not just part 13

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:15 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     It's only 17 pages
     Impossible that it contains all those glyphs

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:15 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     The 1993 version only has 13 pages! What is IN it

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:16 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     YOOOO I got access to ISO/IEC TR 9573-13:1991

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:16 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "a glyph identifier, registered in accordance with ISO/IEC 10036"

     I guess it's time to hunt that one down now :mario_flop:

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:17 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     what is up with references to subcommittees and working groups that do not exist

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:18 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "ISO/IEC/JTC 1/WG 4 (formerly ISO/IEC/JTC 1/SC 18/WG 8)"

     AHA

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:18 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     there's no SC 18 💀

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:19 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://www.iso.org/committee/45020.html
     WG 4 isn't even listed... I guess they don't list disbanded groups

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:19 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_JTC_1 it's not listed among the working groups here
     suspicioius

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:20 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     okay so ISO says the subcommittee in charge of this tech report is ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 but I'm looking at their documents and they only go back to 1998 when the original TR was published in 1991
     what gives

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:20 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "(JTC 1 June 1998 Resolution 19 Disbandment of JTC 1/WG 4 and Establishment of a New Subcommittee 34) This new SC will operate in the Technical Direction - Document Description Languages - with the following title and scope:"

     oh it used to be a different working group in charge of this I guess

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:21 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Ok I was wrong. There are publicly available minutes and proposal comments and whatnot, like this https://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/0601.htm but it seems rather hard to search for them unless you have the write keywords to google...

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:21 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://www.jtc1sc34.org/repository/sc34old.htm here we go. I'll have to look through all of the links when I'm on desktop

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:22 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     See the problem is that the ISO standards might list the characters but they don't give explanations for what they're supposed to mean, AND ISO isn't very... open so they don't give things like proposal documents and meeting minutes like Unicode does, so it's hard to track down something that suddenly appears in an ISO standard
     They're basically dead ends

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:23 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     The only LaTeX package that has the symbol is stix https://www.ctan.org/pkg/stix which was created in 2001 and calls it \rangledownzigzagarrow and I couldn't find it in amsmath or amstex so I have a feeling that even though the character is under ISO AMS-A I don't think it's actually from the AMS

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 02:41:23 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     wait STIX is part of AMS. STIX references the ISO standard for the character but the ISO standard lists AMS-A as the source so I no longer know anymore

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:23:06 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @nonphatic I found a stackexchange question and a blog post about ⍼ but they are you.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:23:11 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @nonphatic Other than that I've found tables in English, German and LaTeX that just mention the character among others, and a parser tutorial that randomly picks ⍼ for an example. The fog of mystery is thick.
     
     I also found search hits that incorrectly rendered some Chinese character in the source text as ⍼ in the search result.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:39:26 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     Oh I lost it already, but it was like a "are you following along so far" question like "what would you need to define to parse e.g. the string '⍼'?". It really revealed nothing about the meaning of the character, it was entirely arbitrary.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:39:26 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @nonphatic Did you find your display name "⍾" while looking for the angle zig zag guy? Because I did.
   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:39:27 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     @clacke what's the parser tutorial?

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:39:33 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @nonphatic Or the other way around maybe?
   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Apr-2022 20:40:28 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     @clacke I was browsing through the entire Miscellaneous Technical lol

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   • elm (lm@icosahedron.website)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:35 UTC elm

     in reply to

     @nonphatic i am so invested in this tale just fyi

     tell me about The Arrow

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:35 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     • elm

     @lm oh it's a whole blog post now https://ionathan.ch/2022/04/09/angzarr.html

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:37 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     hmm I never noticed this blurb in the SGML Handbook:
     "NOTE — Visual depictions of most of the technical use entities are identified by their entity names in Association of American Publishers
     Electronic Manuscript Series: Markup of Mathematical Formulas, published by the Association of American Publishers, Inc., 2005 Massachusetts
     Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20036, U.S.A."

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:39 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I found this really interesting account of AFII by its former president http://www.unicode.org/L2/L1999/99342-afii.txt

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:42 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     It's from AFII's International Glyph Register and I can't find a scan of it BUT it's at the Library of Congress apparently https://lccn.loc.gov/94128788
     gimme gimme gimme

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:43 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     YO look what I found under 55676 http://10036ra.org/glyph-table.php?page=556

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:45 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I think Acrobat is just upsetti about me having unDRM'd a PDF bc I could open it in my browser PDF viewer and in okular

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:47 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I tried to download the PDF I uploaded to libgen and it says it's "damaged or corrupted" lmao uh oh

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:48 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     like that

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:50 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     oh you can't see that against a black background. hold on

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Wednesday, 13-Apr-2022 07:06:51 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     hehe

   • Dr. Canageek (canageek@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:10 UTC Dr. Canageek

     in reply to

     @nonphatic I mentioned this on TeX Stack Exchange and multiple people commented; I see a former AMS member replied to you, and someone else in the chat mentions having been involved with those documents XD

     Small world

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:11 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I found this http://cds.cern.ch/record/285265/files/cn-95-008.pdf?version=1 which has in appendix G the entire maths entity set of ISO 12083 and it's actually quite small and I don't see a lot of symbols so. not here

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:11 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     lol I found a copy of ISO 8879 without DRM
     https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/FIPS/fipspub152.pdf

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:12 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     A little bit of more history https://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/HTML-WG/html-wg-95q2.messages/0239.html which makes me think that ISO 12083 probably came after and references TR 9573-13, but its precursor ANSI/NISO Z39.59-1988 came before it

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:13 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Actually: in Practical SGML, chapter 14, it says that EMPM came *before* the SGML standard. So it's possible that the characters defined in the SGML standard come from EMPM, then MMF is published with more characters, and finally TR 9573-13 adopts the extra characters, which explains the incongruency between the entity sets of SGML and of TR 9573-13

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:13 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     which means I need a copy of MMF. welp

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:14 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I'm not sure why the SGML handbook references MMF rather than EPM. I'm not sure if this means that MMF has more character than EPM does

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:15 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I can probably get access to EPM via my library since it's an ANSI standard, but no such luck for MMF

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:15 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     I can also see the ToC for EPM here: https://webstore.ansi.org/preview-pages/NISO/preview_ANSI+NISO+ISO+12083-1995+(R2002).pdf
     So I think it would be under A.6, possibly A.6.7 Labelled Arrows (being a character filed under arrows, and having a name which is a label)

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:16 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     so the SGML handbook was published I think in 1990, a few years after the release of ISO 8879:1988, which it wholly contains
     the text Markup of Mathematical Formulas was published in 1989, while its precursor Electronic Preparation and Markup was published in 1988 (which uses SGML)
     there's new symbols in TR 9573-13:1991, and based on the years, I think it's entirely possible that the timeline went like this:
     * 1988: SGML is released
     * 1988: EPM is published
     * 1989: MMF is published
     * 1990: SGML handbook is published, containing the entire SGML spec, including an entity set missing ⍼
     * 1991: TR 9573-13 is released, adding ⍼ sourced from MMF (?) or EPM (?)
     I then just need access to either MMF and EPM to check

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:17 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     There's a copy at a German research institute's library https://julib.fz-juelich.de/vufind/Record/16669

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 06:17:17 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     https://search.law.villanova.edu/Record/.b1245776 and a Villanova Law?

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Saturday, 07-May-2022 04:41:51 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Update: I just got a copy of MMF and it's not in there, but it's published in 1987, so it actually predates ISO 8869:1988

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Saturday, 07-May-2022 04:41:51 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     Some interesting comments from https://youtu.be/cCoed5Oo_J4

     "The symbol was actually first invented somewhere between 1973 and 1978 when it appeared in an architectural drawing. It was more than likely just a printing error. Then in the early 1980s, around 1983 it began to be used in certain business documents, generally for memos and Some presentations.
     Or, it was actually used in some Dutch economic textbooks in the 1980s."

     sauce or it didn't happen

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   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Saturday, 07-May-2022 08:40:32 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "Housing not grounded. Was used in the 80's in some electrician magazines in some European countries but never actually caught on."
     "I'd have look in my attic I do have some old Hungarian and Czeh DIY Electrician's Magazines. Also, I'm NOT saying that this is the origin of the symbol, I merely say that it was used in SOME but didn't catch on."
     not if I do it first

   • 🪦 (nonphatic@cybre.space)'s status on Saturday, 07-May-2022 08:40:32 UTC 🪦

     in reply to

     "Hey know that Symbol! saw It on a Housing that is under voltage on a ~1920's German Electonic control cabinet!"

   • Lulu (erkin@functional.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-May-2022 08:42:13 UTC Lulu

     in reply to

     @nonphatic
     It's the sigil of Angzarr, an ancient chaos god, obviously.

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