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1. Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:23 UTC Marie Gutbub

   I've always wondered what happens to that number you still use for messengers but don't own anymore:

   Why tech companies should stop using phone numbers as user IDs - a super weird story in a thread ⬇️

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:17 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     People have been talking for a while about how using phone numbers as user IDs is bad for people who are being harassed, for minorities, etc. How it is problematic in terms of surveillance.

     But I've never thought of what is happening with all the accounts tied to phone numbers.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:18 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     The employee continues: "You know, it's a thing people do, making Whatsapp accounts and not keeping the phone number. It's not our fault, the agency in charge of distributing the phone numbers gives them away 3 months after they started being inactive. This is not our problem."

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:18 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     And about my particular problem? "I've been working here for 5 years, it's the first time I hear this story. So it's just a case of bad luck. We can't help you. Get a new sim card."

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:19 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     "But the people from the hotline don't really speak German", I say.

     He looks confused. Which hotline? "The one for prepaid customers."

     "Oh, you're a prepaid customer? I can't do anything for you then."

     So nobody will help me? "No, you'll have to get a new number."

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:19 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     (Side note, getting a new number means going through the ID process as Germany requires IDs to activate sim cards. This is very complicated for foreigners: I've tried to go through the process five times and I've succeded once. Getting my current simcard took two attempts.)

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:20 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     The person in charge of helping me, unfortunately, barely speaks German. They struggle to understand me. They're simply not equipped with the language skills necessary to address any issues that go beyond the standard stuff people call their carriers for.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:20 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     After ten minutes, we give up on trying to understand each other. They suggest I go to a store to get help.

     There a man explains to me that if I want a new number, he'll have to charge me fora new number. If I call the hotline, they can maybe find a solution.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:21 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     Because one thing he said, "but I saw your ad", alerted me, I decide to search for my phone number on Google.

     No results, except if I deactivate SafeSearch.

     Age, weight, body measurement, pictures: My phone number is also the Whatsapp ID of a sex worker.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:21 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     I call the @vodafoneservice hotline.

     A robot voice tells me that the hotline is not for customers on prepaid plans, there's another number for that. Something like the economy class of phone carriers.

     The second number works: After a few loops I finally get to talk to a human.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:22 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     I recently got a new phone number. I spent hours picking the right prepaid plan, setting up things correctly on my phone, updating various account settings and sharing it with people. I had finally taken that tedious step I had been procrastinating for months.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:57:22 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     A few days later I get a call. Hannes, from North Germany, says "I want to meet you".

     I immediately feel very uncomfortable - something about his tone. I say: "I don't know you". "That's ok", he answers. We're stuck in a loop, he doesn't understand the issue.

     I hang up.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:58:02 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     Many services don't allow multiple accounts per phone number.

     Twitter, for example, does this. If the new phone number I get is already linked to someone's old phone number, I have a problem.

     Same with other social media platforms, with messengers and other apps.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:58:39 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     But people change numbers. Because they move, because their needs evolve, because people die and others reach the age where you get a phone.

     More and more of the new phone numbers people get will already be linked to several accounts. And it's always a hassle for the user.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:58:40 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     Same with services like UberEats, where you can't even change the phone number linked to your account.

     So many apps, shops and platforms require phone numbers.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:58:40 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     From a tech company perspective, phone numbers are precious data, percieved as unique identifiers that allow to track people accross services and allow to make sure there's probably a real person behind the account.

     They'll do anything to get your phone number.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:59:07 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     And tech companies? They act like the world should adapt to them and their need to track people.

     Like there are no other solutions.

     They believe in it: If they keep pushing for their approach to user IDs the world will shape itself around them - as it always seems to do.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:59:08 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     Phone carriers don't care about the issue. Specific (state) institutions are responsible for releasing the numbers so they can be given to customers. A number that is officially released is good for use, and the rest it not their problem to solve.

   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:59:08 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     The (state) institutions in charge don't show any interest in solving the issue either. The system has always worked as it was, and they're in the cosy position where they don't have to deal with angry customers.

     So, why change?

   • tommy (tommy@mastodon.oi7.de)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 00:59:18 UTC tommy

     in reply to

     @shiro biology scientists changed codes they use for certain genes since excel auto-transformed some codes to date format (or so).
     So a whole science-branch had to workaround an excel issue.

     Shall I look for a source? This is so 🤦

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:10 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     So we'll keep playing phone-number-roulette because like this nobody will need to change.

     Until most phone numbers are tied to accounts and the issue grows so much that states or other legislators will finally (hopefully) be pushed to create and enforce laws to solve the issue

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   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:10 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @shiro "We have solved it!"
     
     The solution: 32-digit phone numbers
     
     "Nobody dials those manually anyway, use a QR code on your business card"
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:15 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     @shiro Yet another example why requiring ID for a prepaid card is a bad idea. Sweden wants to do this too and I cannot understand why people can't see what a bad idea it is.
   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:16 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     In the meantime, if you create an app, a platform, or whatever piece of tech that requires user IDs, please don't use phone numbers.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:35 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     And if you get a new sim card, google your number before using it 🙃

     It could be the Whatsapp ID of a sex worker, a restaurant, a doctor, or anyone who needs to share their number online.

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   • Marie Gutbub (shiro@chaos.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:03:39 UTC Marie Gutbub

     in reply to

     Looking at you, @signalapp !

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   • Maybe it's Eyesaline (ieure@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:04:00 UTC Maybe it's Eyesaline

     in reply to

     @shiro Also, my last company moved into a brand new building. The elevators got set up with emergency phones that were linked to normal phone numbers. And since they're for emergencies, they automatically answer any call and pipe the audio through the built-in speakers & mic.

     So sometimes when riding it, you'd hear a phone ring and then a confused mystery voice would ask for whoever had that number before.

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   • Maybe it's Eyesaline (ieure@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:04:01 UTC Maybe it's Eyesaline

     in reply to

     @shiro This has been a problem for a long time. In the early days of Twitter, not many people had smartphones, so they built a SMS gateway. Text their shortcode and it posts to your account, someone you follows and it texts you the message.

     Then numbers got recycled and people with new phones started getting preposterous nonsense.

     Looks like it's died down a lot, but search there for "stop texting this number" and you'll still find confused and upset people.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:15 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • Kermode
     @gemlog @shiro I got my mobile phone number in 1998. Used it on multiple phones. I also had a separate account for a mobile wifi egg.
     
     When I moved to HK of course the mobile operator removed my 12-year-old number when I very carefully instructed them to cancel the other plan.
     
     I only discovered their mistake two years later when I visited Sweden and my SIM wouldn't work.
   • Kermode (gemlog@tilde.zone)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:16 UTC Kermode

     in reply to

     @shiro I never give one up. Ever.

   • Eldan Goldenberg (eldang@weirder.earth)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:24 UTC Eldan Goldenberg

     in reply to

     • Kermode

     @gemlog Oh, hrm. I think I may have misparsed "I never give one up", a couple of toots up thread. I read it as "I keep phone numbers indefinitely", but based on your latest reply I think you meant "I avoid ever using a number as a username". In which case, sorry. I was replying based on a complete misreading of your point.

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   • Eldan Goldenberg (eldang@weirder.earth)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:25 UTC Eldan Goldenberg

     in reply to

     • Kermode

     @gemlog If you moved again, would you keep paying for a number you can no longer use, indefinitely, just so that no-one else ever gets it?

   • Kermode (gemlog@tilde.zone)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:25 UTC Kermode

     in reply to

     • Eldan Goldenberg

     @eldang No. Despite my edu in telcom I really don't like phones much. I've been tethered to beepers, pagers and cells all my life. a few years ago I was packing around Three cell phones at once.
     Right now, I dont' even have a sim in my phone ;-)
     I had a 150/400 minutes left over after a year and telus basically stole them by 'expiring' them like old jam.
     I do use a housemate's landline very rarely and I have given that to the govt, because I had no choice. Otherwise, I'm very jealous of it and any cellphone I happen to pack around. None of anyone's business, but mine.

   • Eldan Goldenberg (eldang@weirder.earth)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:26 UTC Eldan Goldenberg

     in reply to

     • Kermode

     @gemlog Ever moved country?

   • Kermode (gemlog@tilde.zone)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:09:26 UTC Kermode

     in reply to

     • Eldan Goldenberg

     @eldang I was born in uk, but live in canada.
     I was young though, parents did it.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Friday, 11-Mar-2022 01:12:58 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • Kermode
     • Eldan Goldenberg
     @eldang You're not the only one who read it that way.
     
     I try to keep my phone numbers indefinitely. I'm paying monthly fees so that if one day I move back to Sweden I could reuse my new old number from 2013.
     
     I don't have a SIM for it. My phone got stolen with my Swedish SIM in it and they only ship SIMs to your official Swedish residence, which I don't have.
     
     @gemlog
   • James Hawley (jrhawley@toot.cafe)'s status on Monday, 28-Mar-2022 06:04:38 UTC James Hawley

     in reply to

     • tommy

     @tommy @shiro I know what paper you're talking about:

     https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1008984

     Originally identified in 2004 as a problem, the entire field of computational biology still hasn't moved past this almost 20 years later.

     I've dealt with this problem myself in my work. It's actually less work to change the gene's actual name than it is to get people to stop using it. But it's still extremely disruptive to do this.

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