Conversation

Notices

1. Andrew (bookseller era) (ajroach42@retro.social)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 06:11:33 UTC Andrew (bookseller era)

   • josef

   Because of @jk I'm thinkin' about computer science.

   We gotta start differentiating between the two schools of code.

   There is the technical "computer science" or "computer engineering" side of things, and then there's the "I need this thing so ima build it" side of things.

   These two are not the same.

   It's the difference between being able to build a table and being a master craftsman. This is okay!

   Both are valuable.

   • Hallå Kitteh repeated this.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 10:06:27 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • josef
     @ajroach42 @jk These *three* are not the same. They are all valuable.
     
     Informatics, software engineering and software craft are on a kind of scale where informatics is all about the underlying theory, craft is all about the tinkering, paper clips and bungee cords just making shit build and ship, and software engineering doesn't exist.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 10:15:00 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Bryan Lunduke
     • Mark Shane Hayden
     @msh @bryanlunduke @ajroach42 When I bought my Amiga 2000 in 1992 you could have a 60 MHz 486 with a bit of tearing and jerkiness in Windows, or you could have an 8 MHz 68000 with super snappy window movement.
     
     Sure, Windows had 256 colors and the Amiga achieved its speed by reducing things to 4 bitplanes, but WB 2.0 was *super snappy*.
     
     Why didn't I buy the Amiga 1200? I was in this sort of "get the computers step by step" frame. Before that Amiga I had bought a Commodore 128, well after they stopped being produced and I could have just as well gotten an Amiga or Atari -- several of my friends had A500s. Actually I bought the C128 from a guy who sold it because he just got a 1040 ST.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 10:17:19 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     Ok, maybe not "well after". C128 was made until 1989 and I probably bought mine in 1990.
   • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune (enkiv2@niu.moe)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 19:25:00 UTC Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune

     • josef

     @ajroach42 @jk (5) As a result, anybody who can knock together a web page thinks they can support a million users, and the people who need to support a million users believe them, and the idea of "supporting a million users" decays to the point where they de-facto succeed (because nobody else does any better). It's bad for everybody, not least beginners who don't know how to improve.

     Hallå Kitteh repeated this.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 20:47:56 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • josef
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     @enkiv2 @jk @ajroach42 This is universal. Nobody knows what they're doing, even the people down the street running the brick-and-mortar shoe shop. We're just winging it. Society just seems to be working because we're (a) not looking very closely and (b) comparing dysfunctional operations to other dysfunctional operations. Wow, that shoe shop down the intersecting street that had to close, they *really* didn't know what they were doing.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 20:56:22 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • josef
     • Vertigo
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     @vertigo @jk @ajroach42 @enkiv2
     
     > Your goal should be to “solve” the problem mostly within the problem domain, not the solution domain.
     
     Oh man that is a hard one. Especially if you're solving somebody else's problem on paid time.
     
     Ties right back to https://social.heldscal.la/notice/5764347 and hey https://social.heldscal.la/notice/5767154 , and those are just from my last few hours of posting.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 21:33:23 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • josef
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     @enkiv2 @jk @ajroach42 I'm just worried that any attempt at this would mean ossifying 70s-80s ideas of software methodology, like the minicomputer and mainframe people I worked with/under in the 90s.
     
     That would not be progress.
     
     The agile movement was really on to something, ostensibly, but I'm afraid that all turned mostly into pseudoscience and pseudolicensing.
   • Jamey Sharp (jamey@toot.cat)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 21:36:50 UTC Jamey Sharp

     • josef
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune

     @enkiv2 @clacke @ajroach42 @jk I'm given to understand that Canada does require professional licensure for everyone using the job title of "Software Engineer"; universities offer an alternate track called "Computer Science" under the math department for those who want a similar degree but don't want the professional license. I don't know, and would be curious to find out, what impact that's had on their software industry.

     Hallå Kitteh repeated this.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 19-Jan-2018 21:39:34 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • josef
     • Vertigo
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     @vertigo @jk @ajroach42 @enkiv2 I just watched the referenced "Hammock-Driven Development" by Rich Hickey (Clojure dude) and it was glorious. I want to stop working and retreat to the wilderness now. With a laptop.
     
     Thinking is nice. I miss it.
     
     https://www.hooktube.com/watch?v=f84n5oFoZBc
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-Jan-2018 03:03:33 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • josef
     • Jamey Sharp
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     • JordiGH
     @jordigh @jk @jamey @ajroach42 @enkiv2 In Sweden you can take an engineer diploma with software ("Datateknik"/"Dataingenjör") (so, an SE MSc), a CS MSc or a CS MA ("Datavetenskap").
     
     Those are the engineering or engineering-adjacent diplomas, but then there's also "Information Systems" ("Systemvetenskap"), which is probably what a lot of people should be studying if they want to "study programming", but as it is not engineering-adjacent (although it is offered at polytechnic colleges), it's not considered very attractive and doesn't convey the same status on the job market.
     
     Companies generally don't know that they want IS people and prospective students don't know that companies ought to want IS people.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-Jan-2018 03:04:12 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • josef
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Jamey Sharp
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     • JordiGH
     @jk @jamey @ajroach42 @enkiv2 @jordigh Part of this conundrum is, if you have decent grades in high school, you're "supposed" to go into engineering at the university.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 20-Jan-2018 03:05:45 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • josef
     • Jamey Sharp
     • Victorian Sparkgap Kitsune
     • JordiGH
     @jordigh @jk @jamey @ajroach42 @enkiv2
     
     > engineering ethics
     
     Wow.