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1. Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 13:40:56 UTC Hallå Kitteh

   • The Tcl scripting language and related projects
   The rise and decline of !tcltk : an analysis.
   
   It's a good read and written in quite a narrative form, so I think I'm going to read it out loud as an #hprep.
   
   https://journal.dedasys.com/2010/03/30/where-tcl-and-tk-went-wrong/
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 14:34:51 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Dave Morriss
     @perloid I have used tcl a bit when playing with expect and sqlite, but I think I learned it when messing with the SunOS package system back in uni.
     
     It's an oldie but goldie and I'd like to do more with it at some point, not the least to look into [incr tcl].
     
     I find it fascinating how Tcl manages to do several things opposite from common wisdom (dynamic scope, references by name only, are the two main ones) yet somehow ends up with equivalent power to more abstract languages like Scheme. #picolisp is rather tcl-like in that aspect and intrigues me too.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 14:40:19 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Dave Morriss
     • LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}
     @perloid Tcl with tclsh is the only language I know that stays very close to processes and system commands, yet still can express complex nested variable situations and calls without giving you quoting-derived aneurysms and make you fear you left a whitespace bug somewhere.
     
     I probably should jump out of bash and into tcl as soon as a program goes beyond a few lines ...
     
     @lnxw48a1
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 14:59:26 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Dave Morriss
     • LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}
     @perloid @lnxw48a1 Having to use #expect signals to me that somebody made some big mistakes designing their software.
     
     But when you're there and it's an established fact that you have to work with what you've got, Expect is invaluable.
     
     And it simply isn't possible to express yourself as neatly in pexpect (Python) as it is in the original.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 15:01:33 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Dave Morriss
     @perloid Never heard of MH before, looks like I've discovered a whole subculture!
     
     Sadly, looks like its web presence is quite fractured and incomplete these days. The wiki is dead, for one.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 15:33:06 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Dave Morriss
     @perloid Yes, looks like a maildir ancestor. Very cool.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 15:36:42 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Scheme Programming Language
     > I find it fascinating how Tcl manages to do several things opposite from common wisdom (dynamic scope, references by name only, are the two main ones) yet somehow ends up with equivalent power to more abstract languages like Scheme.
     
     And indeed someone even implemented !scheme in it too:
     
     http://wiki.tcl.tk/25512
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 15:54:01 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Dave Morriss
     @perloid The world's first book published on the internet!
     
     Whatever that means. I'm guessing they worked on it in public and took comments?
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 16:04:24 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • The Tcl scripting language and related projects
     A response to the article brings up a concrete example of the technical and social challenges using !tcltk :
     
     http://robertvbinder.com/what-i-learned-building-a-software-product-with-tcl/
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 16:19:24 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     /via https://lobste.rs/s/79hpcl/where_tcl_tk_went_wrong
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 27-Aug-2017 08:22:18 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     Posted. http://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=2386
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 27-Aug-2017 08:29:36 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     Of course only minutes later I find the page I was hoping would exist:
     
     http://www.tkdocs.com/resources/languages.html
     
     It's not very exhaustive, but I did forget to mention Ruby/Tk. Does anyone know a longer list of languages with Tk packages? I don't believe for a minute only Python, Perl, Lua, Ruby and R did it.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 27-Aug-2017 08:31:34 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     To further entangle their histories, there was of course a Guile Tk, now abandoned for Guile Gnome.
     
     https://wiki.tcl.tk/4546