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@clacke @moonman @augustus @lambadalambda @hardbass2k8 and we need to put safeguards so the system control itself.
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- Hallå Kitteh repeated this.
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@augustus you would be so happy in China, North Korea or Saudi Arabia, they agree with your ideals
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@ghostdancer those three states and my ideology are only similar insofar as they are all *not* faggy western democratic liberalism and the idea that they therefore must be compatible due to them not sharing a certain quality just goes to show how unable you are to think outside of your own context
i literally fucking hate communism and islam and want them to be eradicated, why the fuck would you think i would be happy there
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@augustus they share your ideal that a privileged elite should rule over the ignorant peasants. Islam, communism,fascism all the same.
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@why that's the theory, a nice one, but we have seen how it has been perverted
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@hckr it's on my to-read list
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@augustus who decides who are the best?You?
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@augustus may we see your qualifications for dictator? I wouldn't like to be ruled by a no one with no experience in running countries :-)
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@augustus how can we trust anyone that he/she would do the right choices, or how do we choose the right person for the job?
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@ghostdancer how we can trust democracy? we didn't know. we just tried it.
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@augustus and absolute dictatorships and religious monarchies, everything has failed but democracy looks like the less bad of them
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@ghostdancer monarchies didn't fail, they were just overturned by violent anti-monarchists who promised a better system with democracy which hasn't worked
democracy is only in ascendency because it murdered all its competitors using extreme violence and now it's the only thing left standing, even now when things sufficiently different to it crop up people like you call for their termination on the grounds of them being "evil dictatorships"
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@augustus @ghostdancer monarchies fell because the nobility started shirking their responsibilities while still trying to hold on to their high positions.
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@augustus when someone cuts your head i 'd consider that as a failure, people didn't want kings put there by the grace of a god.
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@ghostdancer so if i violently overthrow democracy and kill all who oppose me that proves Democracy is a failure then
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@augustus yes, people want democracy then defend it, is not a god given gift. You have to fight for your rights or pay the consequences
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@augustus you still have not answered the question about how to choose the super omnipotent rulers that will save us from ourselves ...
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@augustus you want to be the man with the gun
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@augustus that's a dictatorship, they decide over your life, they can decide that is good to get rid of you and send you to work to a gulag
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@augustus you'd love to be an ignorant slave then, cause that's what you say, You will be so happy in North Korea, which is not communist.
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@augustus @ghostdancer Its violent overthrow is how we define the Weimar Republic as a failure.
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@clacke @ghostdancer they were voted into power though. no Democracy, no Nazis. is this a dishonest argument to get you to dislike Democracy? yes. do i care? no
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@augustus i agree with you that people are stupid, but less bad a democracy than a dictatorship, i prefer Nordic countries than Russia.
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@augustus @clacke Democracy is not perfect.And there lies the danger, people voting with their guts not with their brains.
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@ghostdancer @clacke take their votes away then, they're only going to be used by whichever PR firms can get to them first. we're so many levels removed from this whole simple one man one vote thing it's quite funny really
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@augustus @ghostdancer @clacke I feel like the "I fucking love science" crowd ignores what we know about human psychology. it's bad to have both completely free commercial speech and universal franchise.
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@moonman @ghostdancer @clacke their love of democracy as the source of all goodness overrides whatever evidence they could be shown i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Rational_Voter
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@augustus @clacke they can say the same about your vote. For them you are no one/ nothing. Do you agree with that?
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@augustus The myth of the benevolent dictator, country saviour, sometimes put there by the grace of a god, sometimes by the power of guns.
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@augustus i'll give you some names that came to save us from ourselves Mao, Adolf,Stalin,Franco, Pinochet, the Kims, ...
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@augustus @ghostdancer @clacke I don't agree with Caplan's conclusions about what is good for a voter to vote for, but he's correct that the reason voting doesn't work is because there's no direct penalty for being wrong. The way this used to be handled was that vote was effectively per landowning household head. It can be argued back and forth how fair this is, but it roughly correlated to intelligence plus low time preference, which are good things for a voter to be.
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@augustus @clacke i prefer you and me to vote, so we can get something reasonable than not voting and having to submit to a dictator
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@moonman @clacke @augustus @ghostdancer Democracy might be intellectually indefensible, but simply making transition of power safe is already enough to prefer it to any other kind of government, I think.
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@moonman @augustus @clacke democracy's been polluted in a way that the common people don't give a damn, we've lost control over our votes
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@lambadalambda @augustus @ghostdancer @clacke That is a good point, but I worry that's one of those things that's true until it's not.
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@moonman @ghostdancer @augustus @lambadalambda @clacke Democracy is really safe until any of the participants turns it into a dictatorship. Of course, "that's not democracy's fault", but in reality it is. And frankly, if you rig a "democratic" system so heavily that any Hitlerdoganmarcos is absolutely impossible, there isn't really a point to the democratic elements besides PR. imho
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@augustus @moonman @ghostdancer I can recommend http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-176-jason-brennan-on-against-democracy.html , which was a really clear-headed discussion on how we can filter out the worst parts of democracy, yet keep the "peaceful transfer" and "people feel it's legitimate" parts. It's complicated, of course, and the show gives no straight answers. That's why it's worth listening to.
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I see democracy as the form of organization which minimizes the necessary oppression: If you deem the self-determination of all people equally important then any movement away from one-person-one-vote makes group decisions worse for the aggregated group.
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@drak @ghostdancer Democracy was sort of founded to safe-guard civil rights. It's been proving remarkably difficult to have democracy not undermine civil rights.
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@ghostdancer @lambadalambda @moonman @augustus @hardbass2k8
Safeguards are difficult. Let's go shopping.
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@ghostdancer @moonman @augustus @lambadalambda @clacke I'm still all for "fuck the system" and no further metagame playing. Chances are that if I don't mate with someone exceptionally dumb my children will be smarter than I am right now by the time they reach this age. Until then my priorities are just survival, actually having kids, those kids' survival. No need to try and build the social-democratic Prussian ethnostate on Hokkaido.
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@clacke LOL @moonman @augustus @lambadalambda @hardbass2k8
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@hardbass2k8 @clacke @moonman @augustus @ghostdancer Having a state is not some abstract philosophical exercise, it is what keeps people alive. I don't understand why opting out of that would be a good idea.
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@hardbass2k8 i've seen worse plans @moonman @augustus @lambadalambda @clacke
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@lambadalambda @augustus @hardbass2k8 @ghostdancer @clacke If anyone thinks that democracies are government by consent, they should ask some Native Americans what they think of that.
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@moonman @clacke @augustus @ghostdancer @hardbass2k8 Of course. As we all know, if voting could change things, it would be illegal.
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@lambadalambda @moonman @augustus @ghostdancer @clacke I'm not the one who has the state. I'm living in one, but my influence as prescribed by the system is negligible. I could obviously plant bombs or try to fight my way up into the upper echelons of some political party, or I could take care of my own shit and not mess with other people for sake of messing with other people. The state isn't designed to keep people alive, that's just a PR gimmick. Like free spotify. I use that, but I won't ever pay for it.
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@lambadalambda @augustus @hardbass2k8 @ghostdancer @clacke you can vote on a lot of things, but what you can't do is vote to leave. even if you change citizenship you basically are just transferring from one sovereign to another.
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@hckr no i have just began The martian.
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Founding democracy to safe-guard civil rights isn’t what I learned. In Athens and in the Paris commune, it was to curb the power of nobles.
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@hckr just beginning, it's been recommended as the best sci-fi (lots of sci) in the last years.
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Which at the time was similar to curbing the power of rich heirs.
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@hckr yes, but it's surprisingly realistic, OTOH i guess that's the point of close sci-fi, you can relate to it and understand it.
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@hardbass2k8 @lambadalambda @moonman @augustus @ghostdancer If you are using free Spotify, you are paying for it.
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@moonman @lambadalambda @augustus @ghostdancer @hardbass2k8 Get a recreational nuke, put it in your motorcycle, transfer to your own sovereignty.
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@moonman @lambadalambda @clacke @augustus @ghostdancer @hardbass2k8 that's what its supposed to be, and what the word means.
> In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
centralized power is always a threat to freedom, and the fight for decentralization wont end any time soon.
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@takeshitakenji you don't have where you live? Here you can find them in supermarkets @moonman @augustus @lambadalambda @clacke @hardbass2k8
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@drak The power of feudal rich heirs to infringe on their rights.
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Nope. The power of feudal rich. Rights are defined by whoever has power.
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democracy literally means "rule by the people", not "rights to the people". General rights you can rely on are in the interest of most people, therefore they are a typical outcome of an informed democratic process, but they are not required to have a democracy.
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@drak That's what I'm talking about. The desire for democracy is not without an aim, at least not historically, it's a means to securing rights that "are in the interest of most people". Once we had democracy, people clamored more rights, and went from securing negative rights to securing positive rights, privileges, to the detriment of the original rights secured.
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What do you mean by "clamored"? Democracy means that the people decide what is done. Do you mean your rights are infringed by the majority?
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@drak That is the classical liberal, neoliberal, and libertarian viewpoint when a social democracy increases taxes to do wealth distribution or to perform state functions not necessary to secure negative rights, and when it forbids certain types of trade or enforces monopolies.
ghostDancer
augustus pugin
Christmas Personified as a Catgirl
Hallå Kitteh
Constance Variable
anonymous shitposter of terror
drak
災̷̡̆害̎̐͊の̴ͩ̅̔̏女̢ͭ̋͑ͨͤ͝王̡̂̔͆̾͘͟
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