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@gamesgoodmegood @maiyannah @degeneracy
At this point, given how entrenched these people that use feminism are... what can you do as an individual feminist? As you've pointed out, they have infiltrated the media, academia, government and women groups.
As an atheist, I would honestly hope that you wouldn't associate me with A+. I heard that people assumed we just laid down and let them in, as if gamers were the first to draw the line... but the atheists I knew did not accept them. We argued with them, and they blocked us. We trolled them, and they blocked us. They created their block bot to protect themselves from us and continued on. They infiltrated the movement and got into some groups. But you'd never know that people rejected them. That when they introduced their A+ block bot on twitter... that they were infiltrated by an atheist that trolled them pretending to be one of them. That people deliberately protested and wore being on the block list as a badge of honour of sorts. If you weren't there, then the history is lost in everything that happened afterwards.
All you can do is reject them as an individual, but they will still continue on as they were before. I reckon that block bot from A+ is still functional, and I think they had to change things due to their early run-ins with other atheists on twitter.
- Hallå Kitteh repeated this.
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@sim @maiyannah @gamesgoodmegood @degeneracy I've missed something here. I thought A+ was never a thing. Like, Rebecca Watson and a handful others wanted it and everyone else realized no, atheism is atheism and if you want more there's humanism. You're saying there was a big beef?
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@clacke @gamesgoodmegood @sim @degeneracy Doesn't take much poking around reddit to see its alive and well.
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@maiyannah @sim @gamesgoodmegood @degeneracy
Sigh. I'll take your word for it. I need to watch robots redpilling themselves now.
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@clacke @maiyannah @gamesgoodmegood @degeneracy
Yep. Last I checked, it was still a thing. But I'm not sure now. The thing is, these things don't require a lot of people in order to still be kicking about... just a small group willing to continue it on. As I said, they would block people that argued with them so they isolate themselves rather than seeing what they were doing for what it is.
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@maiyannah @clacke
Pretty much. Give them a platform and media presence... and suddenly they get to speak for you once they claim to do so. The amount of people attempting to speak for the categories that I fall under is quite something. I have not given them any reason to think that they speak for me, but that doesn't matter to them. Because it is about themselves, and not about me or anyone else that falls into that category that they don't know. I could outright tell them that they don't speak for me, but they don't want to hear it because it doesn't fit the narrative they want to tell. Because that doesn't help them to express their own issues. As I said, it is about them... and sometimes they can't imagine why anyone would think differently to them. So it is shunned instead.
If I were to be a feminist, I would probably feel exhausted because there are too many groups claiming to speak for feminism that I would disagree with. Then getting into conversation with different people... I would have to make it clear to them what my position is and that I don't agree with this or that group. To be honest, I would probably end up re-writing what people assume feminism is these days. Cause I don't believe in this patriarchy theory, gender wage gap, and nor do I even think we're all equal. I think we should be viewed as equal before the court of law and government... I don't think people should be discriminated for their gender when it comes to the workplace. It should be based on if they are capable of doing the job. But I do think that it is important that we recognise that we are individuals, and we are different... we have our own strengths and weaknesses, our own upbringing and experiences that we bring to the table. So there is that.
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@sim @clacke I mostly manage this, by, well - not. I am not really interested in engaging with people who are going to insist I defend positions I don't hold or I am not in the group I identify myself with. These people are not debating or conversing in good faith and I don't really care what they think of me or my beliefs.
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@maiyannah @clacke
Yeah... that was my other thought. It would get so exhausting that I wouldn't even bother trying to converse with people about my position when they get it so wrong. Let them believe what they will because they will do so anyway. No drawn out conversations will change someone's mind once they are set on it, and I can't say that I view it as my job/duty to change their minds. I'm more concerned about getting my own views right and other things that are important to me. I can't change the world, but I can change myself.
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@sim @clacke Well, if someone isn't engaging you in good faith, trying to understand your position, why would you invest the time in discussing with them?
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@maiyannah @clacke
That is a good point. I can only think that you might do it for those on the fence who might be reading the conversation when it comes to online. Or perhaps a habit... or maybe you have a similar issue to those people who are already set on their own ideas. But otherwise it wouldn't make much sense... unless you haven't identified that they aren't engaging in good faith.
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@maiyannah
I think that you can plant seeds in peoples minds... and some people are easily led so you can influence that. Even that relies on the person changing themselves... and sticking to that. But if someone is already set on a belief/view, then that is hard to change unless it is shaken... or say you force them to change it thus using fear motives. As you say, it is generally not worth the effort unless they are valuable to you.
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@sim @maiyannah The reason one argues with people who are unwilling to listen is the compulsion described in #xkcd386 .
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@clacke @sim I think a lot of time we don't realize it until we're invested in the argument, and by then, it looks like we're "giving up" if we back off or cut off the discussion.
Me, I don't care if I do that, because my time is more valuable to me than my reputation in the eyes of people I don't care about, but I can understand not everyone feels the same.
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@sim @clacke "Sometimes I think we devise our own prisons, Master Li, and back into them, pretending amazement all the while" - Neil Gaimann, the Sandman
Sim
Hallå Kitteh
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