@liamdiprose regarding faith over evidence, I'm thinking of (Genesis 22, I believe) the story of Abraham and Isaac, one of the few vague memories I have of the horrors of Sunday school as a kid.

@liamdiprose I think people who are raised & indoctrinated with the bible as the instruction manual for living have a horribly difficult time letting it go. Part of my mission in life is to help some over that (absurdly massive) hump. I find it bizarre that anyone has any fealty to a particular book. Or that they think, just because it's been a fixation for so many people (who actively removed people without that fixation for most of its history), it's somehow valuable or even broadly valid.

@liamdiprose one thing is abundantly clear: any society that draws its inspiration from the Christian bible will a) be full of contradictions, and b) will never be reconcilable with any societies based on any of the world's other (many) major religions. The conflicts will continue to be fundamental - they will always be chalk and cheese no matter how much common ground the societies have. I reckon John Lennon was onto something in Imagine.

@liamdiprose my world view stems, in part, from the hypocrisy I saw, around age 6, in religion long before I had any belief... indoctrination failed on me pretty comprehensively, I think. I don't see that Christianity is responsible for the best aspects of our otherwise broken societies. My position is that Christianity has consistently held back many of the best aspects of society (dominant religion is always a conservative force) & it has been used to justify much of its terminal brokenness.

@liamdiprose what we need before common goals will be possible is a higher floor of education. Because without that, people will not be able to deal with many of the concepts required to achieve the level of civic participation and altruism required to make the world better. That's why I'm focused on education.

@liamdiprose I'd rather it controlled by democratically elected gov't than religious groups... I agree, though, that education systems, to be truly useful, must teach its learners enough to overthrow it :)

@liamdiprose I dunno - the route from pastor to politician is a very very well trodden one...

@liamdiprose pastors, of course, claim the mantle of god's will, and to speak the word of god as 'his messenger'. Therein lies the danger... and the self-serving lies. I'd prefer politicians, as at least they don't claim that sort of authority (unless they're theocrats).

@liamdiprose on this - I honestly think that society "got along" *despite* Christianity & its 'teachings' rather than *because* of it. I argue society is the stablising force, & Christian sectarianism (arguing/warring over minutiae of interpreted fiction) is the divisive one. We see that "Christian" societies' mores have evolved throughout history (with accelerations during the Enlightenment and (arguably) in the "Information Age" (albeit very inequitably). Christian dogma has held us back.

@liamdiprose wisdom on human nature can be timeless. The bible just has a vanishingly low signal-to-noise ratio. I suspect most other holy books of the world's religions are similar. There are bits of each worth keeping... but who chooses *which* bits? That's where the difference between progressives and conservatives comes in, because they'll make very different choices. And we have to encourage everyone to overcome theism (we can't force it) by showing them it works.

@liamdiprose I still think you're creating a false dichotomy. It's not theism or nihilism. It's theism or rational thought (i.e. scientific method). I think nihilists are outliers in either theistic or secular societies. I reject completely the idea that "religion" (i.e. theistic religion in NZ) is necessary to society, but I realise your definition of 'religion' differs from mine. To my mind, loss of religion only has negative connotations from those currently sitting atop the power hierarchy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/460646/horrifying-statistics-show-abuse-complaints-laid-against-1-in-7-catholic-clergy-working-for-a-bishop I think we need to accept that theistic religion in general has less than zero claim to moral authority, and it's had at least 2k years to prove its value, which it has not done. I think it's better if we let it lapse.

@liamdiprose I'd remove the Christ-son-of-god, Holy trinity, and God parts. They're so desperately lacking in (my opinion) interesting and compelling aspects. I feel that only someone who hasn't read any relevant science fiction could believe. Anyone who has would say "pfft, hopelessly lame world creation".

This should remind all of us living in island nations that we need to insist on onshore copies of all our data. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/459961/tonga-a-reminder-of-need-to-modernise-outdated-undersea-cables-laws *Especially* those of us living in island nations with largely carbon-neutral power generation and lots of water for computer facility cooling. What has our government been thinking, shipping all our data to coal powered baking hot Australia?!

@liamdiprose we don't. We recognise that religion is entirely unnecessary. Government is bad enough but at least it can, in theory, be based on scientific methods and evidence. It's clear that religion is not required for a "good" society (in fact, the evidence is clear: religion is contra-indicated on that score!). Without religion, people can be 'spiritual' if they want, but humanity has definitely proven itself incapable of handling religion. It's 'proprietary software for the mind'.

@liamdiprose Look carefully at the 10 commandments. How many are even relevant today? Societies have arrived at the crucial substance of the commandments independently in every case. The Bible is nothing special - and it clouds the waters at every turn with irrelevancies. As I see it, the only ones who benefit from religion are those who are completely at odds with society, and are unable to think rationally. That is, I hope, a very small (and shrinking) segment of society.

@liamdiprose Yes, and nearly all societies, regardless of prevalent religion (or non), has arrived at those rules independently. As such, it's rational to suggest that those rules are sensible without needing to resort to religion. On the contrary, when societies reject those values, it's generally because of/justified by their religion.

@liamdiprose ok, I guess then that we have different definitions of 'religion'. For me, in general, religion means 'theism" (yes, there're notable exceptions, but that's what most people imply)... which implies blind faith. That's where I diverge (and withhold respect) from the idea of religion. There are cultures, social mores, morals, ethics, and those have nothing to do with religion inherently, although some people think religion determines them. I think it's the other way around.

@liamdiprose we don't know if a certain moral or ethic is good, except by testing it. The same as with all human cultural. Gods are all invented by people to, in effect, win arguments. All 'their' morals and ethics are the inventions of people in any case. The idea of God is great but painfully simplistic and uncompelling for those not indoctrinated into it, and/or with a little imagination or analytical nous.

@liamdiprose wow, I think then, that you and I have entirely different world-views (and, I guess, impressions of what constitutes reality)... I think this concept you're referring to as "God" is not a thing. Like, it's entirely made up and an unnecessary (and often extremely destructive) bug in many human brains.