Conversation

Notices

1. Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 06:09:51 UTC Annah
   Part of the reason why I get sometimes so upset, and kind of actually bitter I must admit, over stuff like people coasting on social assistance or living it up with iPads or iPods or the like, is that the people that don't really need it, and use it for that kind of thing, were taking money out of the hands of people who actually did need it. Like a younger me. I got denied assistance when I was homeless. I'm not going to pretend that doesn't colour my perceptions there.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) likes this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Sarah Laing (sklaing@quitter.is)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 06:48:42 UTC Sarah Laing

     in reply to
     @maiyannah "people that don't really need it, [...] were taking money out of the hands of people who actually did need it."
     
     A certain amount of resentment seems very natural under the circumstances, but could it be a bit misdirected? I mean, the main problem was that the system failed many people it should have helped. If it benefited some people whose need was not as great, that was a problem only to the extent that it did so at the expense of those it failed, and yet even there, the root cause of failure was primarily the relatively low resource allocations for social assistance more than the moral character of the populations seeking assistance. (To be fair, I'm not familiar with the Canadian system, and my perspective on moral hazard and such has been formed in the context the typical criticisms many Americans make of the system here).
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 06:56:35 UTC Annah

     in reply to

     • Sarah Laing
     @sklaing It's somewhat dated complaints now.  It's funny people get on about our former Prime Minister Stephen Harper so much, to me anyways, one of the objectively positive things he did was simulataneously make it harder for people that are intentionally trying to abuse social assistance to do so, while at the same time adding *many* programs at the federal and provincial levels to aid different groups at need.  Unemployment assistance is much greater, there is essentially a basic income through the Works program, and things are in general pretty improved.
     
     At the same time, what we call "welfare bums" are a very big problem in Canada.  There's people who manage to take the government for a lot of money all while making money under the table.  In one very infamous case that gets cited a lot by people who want to dismantle the welfare system, one person was making six figures from online funding (paypal "donations") all the while claiming welfare benefits.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 06:57:29 UTC Annah

     in reply to

     • Sarah Laing
     @sklaing Obviously, dismantling the welfare system is NOT the answer to that kind of abuse, but it does happen here, and I can share those people's frustrations with it happening, I just do not agree with their proposed "fix", if I'd even call it that.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Sarah Laing (sklaing@quitter.is)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 07:06:28 UTC Sarah Laing
     @maiyannah In any system like this, there is going to be some abuse, and there will also be some failures, and while we want to minimize both, they tend to trade off against each other, forcing decisions about how best to curb abuse, and at what risk to those under-served.
     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) (clackemovedtoheldscalla@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 25-Jul-2016 07:31:33 UTC Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠)

     in reply to

     • Sarah Laing
     @sklaing @maiyannah At its core, there's bound to be a non-avoidable false positive vs false negative trade-off.