Conversation

Notices

1. Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:23 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

   So to sum it up and to skip a bunch of dynasties and capitals that are no fun for the purposes of this summary, there was the capital of Ji (not of a unified China, just of Yan).

   Then there was a Lower Capital, because it was "below" Ji.

   Much later Yuan renamed Ji to Middle Capital because it was between Lower Capital and a new (secondary) Upper Capital.

   Next up, Ming had a capital, but moved to old Ji again, and now it was North Capital because it was north of the old one. And the old one was renamed South Capital (Nánjīng) because it was south of the new one.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:18 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     Nanjing hasn't had quite as many names as Beijing:

     Jīnlíng City (Jīnlíngyì, 金陵邑) -> Jiànyè (建業) ->
     Jiànkāng (建康) -> Shengzhou (昇州) -> Jiangning (江寧) -> Jiànkāng -> Yīngtiān (應天) -> Nánjīng (南京)

     en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing

     Nanking? Weird transliteration of Nánjīng.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:19 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     If you're wondering where "Peking" is in all of this, that was just a strange transliteration of "Běijīng". The city never "changed name from Peking" in Chinese, only in English.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:20 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to
     These cycles are fun, when someone takes the city over and renames it to the Real Name it had before those other Rotten People took over, so they go back 1–2 steps in the sequence.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:20 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     The South Capital thing is interesting, I had no idea.

     During the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_dyn… or Khitan Empire, Beijing ("Nanjing")[0] was really in the far south of that empire, which covered Korea, Manchuria, the area around Beijing, most or all of Mongolia and maybe a third of Siberia.

     It seems Beijing was never part of the Song Dynasty, I never realized that. After the Tang everything was a bit fractured until the Mongols unified most of Eurasia.

     [0] ... or was it "Xijin" ... and Nanjing was the province? It's not clear on Wikipedia, the articles contradict the maps, or the maps and/or articles are unclear

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:21 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     Jì City (Jìchéng, 薊城) -> Zhūo Commandery (Zhūojùn, 涿郡) -> Yōu Prefecture (Yōuzhōu, 幽州) -> Fanyang (范阳) -> Yān Capital (Yānjīng, 燕京) -> Youzhou -> South Capital (!) (Nánjīng, 南京) -> Yānjīng -> Yān Hill (Yānshān, 燕山) -> Yānjīng -> Middle Capital (Zhōngdū, 中都) -> Yānjīng -> Big Capital (Dādū, 大都) -> North Peace (Běipíng, 北平) -> North Capital (Běijīng, 北京) -> Běipíng -> Běijīng -> Běipíng -> Běijīng

     en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of…

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:22 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     Two hundred years later out in the Pacific, Japan renames their capital East Capital (Tōkyō), not for any Chinese reasons, but because it too is east of an old capital Kyōto.

     Still, it feels nice and consistent to know there's an East Capital east of North Capital and South Capital. There is no West Capital today, but Xi'an has from time to time been named that (Xījīng) and it is indeed west of the others.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:29:22 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     Beijing has been a capital multiple times not mentioned above, and had a few other names too. Same for Nanjing. They have both been capitals on and off for the last two thousand years, so they must both be good places for it.

     It makes sense. If you look at the day map they're both in the big green blobs where the food is, and if you look at the night map they're both in the big blobs of light where the people are.

   • chiasm (chiasm@mastodon.online)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:30:07 UTC chiasm

     in reply to

     @clacke "After the Tang everything was a bit fractured..." That made me chuckle--that's my memory of Chinese history too, it gets really messy after the Tang dynasty. 😁 Funny to see someone else say it too, though.

     Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 likes this.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 28-Aug-2023 15:42:43 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • chiasm
     @chiasm Hehe, yeah. Liao/Khitan, Jin, Song, these all coexisted at one point and neither ever controlled all of former Tang. Neither even controlled both of Beijing (Xijin) and Nanjing (Jiankang), I think.
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 09:30:12 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • Andy K
     @ke7yxz Like Peking duck and Pekingese dogs I suppose it's a derived term with its own lifecycle.
   • Andy K (ke7yxz@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 09:30:13 UTC Andy K

     in reply to

     @clacke
     Even after renaming the city, “Peking University” remains the name of the famous institution, though I do not know why.

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 10:03:55 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero
     @hakui @sj_zero For one form of transliteration.
   • sj_zero (sj_zero@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 10:03:56 UTC sj_zero

     in reply to
     It a funny linguistic accident (maybe an accident) that the two cities are basically the same sounds but reversed. To kyo and kyo to
     Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 likes this.
   • 御園はくい (hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 10:03:56 UTC 御園はくい

     in reply to

     • sj_zero
     @sj_zero @clacke it's toukyou vs kyouto actually
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 10:03:59 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero

     @hakui Ah, you mean the long versus short o. Yes, true, but that's covered by "basically".

     @sj_zero

   • 御園はくい (hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 10:46:23 UTC 御園はくい

     in reply to

     • sj_zero
     @clacke @sj_zero for a broad enough basic basically all sounds are similar
     Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 likes this.
   • coldacid on 🔥 (coldacid@shitposter.club)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:33 UTC coldacid on 🔥

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero
     @hakui @clacke @sj_zero versus Heian-kyou, really. Kyoto just means "capitol city" and Tokyo is "eastern capitol". The original and proper name of Kyoto is Heian, but that was forgotten over time.
   • 御園はくい (hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:33 UTC 御園はくい

     in reply to

     • sj_zero
     • coldacid on 🔥
     @coldacid @clacke @sj_zero and tokyo was originally edo. your point being?
   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:33 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero
     • coldacid on 🔥

     @coldacid It's pretty funny, in a thread about how Beijing had a dozen names through the last 2500 years, to claim that one of Kyoto's historical names would be more "proper" than another.

     @hakui @sj_zero

   • Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅 (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:48 UTC Santa Claes 🇸🇪🇭🇰🎅

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero
     • coldacid on 🔥

     @sj_zero Yeah, they're not reverse to the Japanese ear, semantically or phonetically.

     @hakui @coldacid

   • coldacid on 🔥 (coldacid@shitposter.club)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:49 UTC coldacid on 🔥

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • sj_zero
     @hakui @clacke @sj_zero except that the renaming of Edo to Tokyo was deliberate (and well known, unlike Heian the original name of Kyoto), but primarily I'm just breaking things down for @sj_zero
   • sj_zero (sj_zero@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Aug-2023 11:56:49 UTC sj_zero

     in reply to

     • 御園はくい
     • coldacid on 🔥
     There's a haiku from the era where Japan reentered the world after centuries of isolation after their warring states period:
     
     泰平の
     眠りを覚ます
     上喜撰
     たった四杯で
     夜も眠れず
     
     As it's been explained to me, it can be interpreted as talking about drinking just a few cups of tea, or of just a few steam ships, and then keeping you awake at night. Such duality of meaning is common.
     
     For a culture with a poetic culture like that it's tough for me not to notice the resemblance and wonder if there was some intentionality in naming the new capital the opposite of the old capital on the other side of the island.
     
     That being said, the two names are etymologically different and I'm not aware of any evidence that it's true. I'm just demonstrating maximum weebosity