Leo Sammallahti
Somehow many otherwise reasonable people have concluded that eastern european countries that joined NATO to protect themselves from Russian invasion are (at least to some extent) to blame for Russia invading an eastern european country that did not join NATO.
If anything, war in Ukraine proves the opposite - that had they not joined NATO, they would have risked being attacked by Russia.
Caleb James DeLisle
@LeoSammallahti
> Look what you made me do
zeh
@LeoSammallahti you say that i'm being idealistic, but i think it is quite the other way around. how operative is your question and answer to the issue at hand? what do you do with your reasoning, how does that change what you do? you vote differently next time? thinking, talking of we-as-country is the wrong framework, it's precisely what brought us here. there is no we with oligarchs, nato, or state. those are not my interests. my interests are those of people, here and in other places.
Leo Sammallahti
It is not a framework but a reality. States exist and they go to war with each other. If a state is a member of NATO, other countries are less likely to go to war with it.
We can try to reduce nationalism, etc. (which is a goal I agree with), but we cannot just deny the reality that NATO provides protection for many countries from Russian aggression.
You might not care, but people living in those countries do.
zeh
@LeoSammallahti hence, i'm not concerned with discerning when a country joining nato would be beneficial for that country, since an expanded nato is a bigger threat to every person and therefore i oppose that, along with other military blocks and imperialist countries. i side with people, not countries, and refuse to think it the terms of countries, as those are generally against people everywhere.
Leo Sammallahti
We do not yet live in an ideal world where we can ignore the harsh realities of some countries being threatened by others.
For many of us in countries neighbouring Russia the best option to protect ourselves from aggression is membership in NATO.
Hopefully Russia will transform to something that no longer poses a threat to its neighbours, and then NATO can be dismantled. But before that happens, we cannot rely on Russia not attacking us if we are not protected by the NATO.
zeh
@LeoSammallahti maybe. that may be true. but i was trying to say that those questions do not concern me. i'm not a government, i don't think like a government. what i do know is that the existence of nato is itself a threat - it is a military block, used by states and oligarchs to pressure, threaten and wage wars. 1/2
zeh
@LeoSammallahti seems to me that you are caught in thinking about countries instead of people. nato does not protect people, that is abundantly clear, quite the opposite. if we don't let ourselves be sidetracked into that, it's easy to see that we should oppose war (current, in-progress war) and all preparations, shenanigans, propaganda, lies, profit motive that leads to war. that is nato.
Leo Sammallahti
So NATO membership of say, Estonia, does not reduce the risk of Estonian people being invaded?
The most likely country to attack Estonian people is Russia, and surely the risk of Russia attacking Estonian people is lower if they are members of NATO?
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