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1. Peter (peter@mastodon.nl)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:33:50 UTC Peter

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭
   • koherecoWatchdog

   @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog
   If you want to argue that the western critcism of China often is very hypocritical, you might have an argument.
   But insinuating that there is nothing wrong with China's autocratic system, because the majority of Chinese people supports the it, just disqualifies you from any meaningful conversation.
   By the same logic you can argue that captitalism is fine, because most people in the west support it, or that racism in the US is fine, since the majority there is racist.

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   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:33:47 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter plenty of other countries like India had much more room for improvement, yet China is the one country where life is actually improving.

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   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:33:48 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @peter @koherecoWatchdog the comparison isn't of the popularity of the leaders, but of the public satisfaction with how the government is performing.

     People in China have seen their lives improve consistently and rapidly over the decades. The same cannot be said about the west.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:33:48 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter I wouldn't link lifestyle with gov. performance satisfaction. Indeed Chinese lifestyles had much more room for improvement over recent decades (starting from a lower point). And indeed that potential has manifested into reality -- to the point that learning Mandarin has become more popular in the west to accommodate the influx of Chinese tourism due to lifestyle gains.

   • Peter (peter@mastodon.nl)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:33:49 UTC Peter

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog
     Comparing the popularity of the Chinese system with the popularity of political leaders in the West is a fallacy anyways, since you would have to compare rulers against rulers, which would be the billionaire oligarchs in western systems.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:34:12 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter you're making a fallacy equating quality of life with consumerism

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   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:34:13 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter i agree. So it's interesting to compare China to India. Not as interesting to compare China to the US or Europe, where lifestyles have been quite good for some time, which makes improvement more difficult and less likely. In fact it would be misfocused for the US or Europe to strive to improve lifestyles when there are bigger needs unrelated to personal lifestyles.

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   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:34:13 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter the fact of the matter is that standard of living in US in Europe is actually dropping. People have reduced purchasing power compared to the 70s, they own less, they work harder, they have reduced social safety nets.

     It's not that the west reached a plateau, it's that the system is eating itself with wealth being consolidated by the top percent of the population.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 17:34:13 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter That's a good thing. The avg American consumes 20 times more than the rest of the world. This is lousy from a climate change PoV. Climate should be a high priority and buying shit should drop.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:39 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter US holds 20% of world's prison population who are predominantly minorities and are used for literal slave labor.

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   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:40 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter is it really that hard for you to spend two minutes googling before making absurd statements?

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:40 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter I don't need Google to tell me how big the Guantanimo Bay operation is

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:40 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @peter @yogthos The US population is on the order of 300+ million. Guantanimo bay is probably under 1000.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:41 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter that's not police. That's the military. The US military indeed does torture. In China, the coerced confessions are not a military op, they are committed by civilians (police) against civilians.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:41 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter I don't actually see the difference here, American *citizens* can be picked up off the street and flown off to a torture camp. And here you are wisely saying that, that what's important here is that it's done by a different arm of the regime. Gotcha.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:41 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter Of course the military is fair game for blame. But the scale of Guantanimo Bay is miniscule compared to all the civilian police departments in the US. It's not even close. And the impact is a world of difference. In China you can be tortured in any police station.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:42 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter Police killings in the US happen /in the street/, not in the station and not for a confession. Disproportionate incarceration happens but that's selective enforcement not a coerced confession scenario.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:42 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter of course they happen in the station as well as on the street. US also runs a literal torture camp on Cuban soil where they can abduct American citizens and hold them there indefinitely without charge or trial.

     https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/3/20/coerced-to-confess-how-us-police-get-confessions

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:43 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter @koherecoWatchdog @peter well you might want to read up on what police does in US, how many killings happen, how many innocent people are abused by the state, the disproportionate incarceration of minorities, the slave labor, kids for cash programs, and so on.

     Nothing even close to such horrors has ever been documented in China.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:44 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter Lived there and i'm close to a number of criminal defense attorneys. A coerced confession is *worthless* and it jeopardizes the prosecutions case to the point that it harms their case even if the other evidence is good.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:44 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @peter @yogthos Beatings in police stations happen in Russia, China and Mexico, not the US.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:45 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter No you do not have suspects getting beaten in police stations because in the US that's suicide for the prosecutions case. There's plenty of excessive force used on the street but that's not to get a confession (it's a cop fearful of the victim lashing back or fear of the suspect getting away)

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:45 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter LMAO have you been to US?

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:46 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter not really seeing the relevance to the discussion here to be honest

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:46 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter It's a consequence of oppression. As is beating someone until they confess, which I believe is how law enforcement is carried out.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:46 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter that's certainly how law enforcement appears to be carried out in US, although usually people just get shot on the spot from what I understand

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:47 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter i don't equate the two.. I was responding to your stance along those lines. That Chinese lifestyles have improved and that this is somehow a measure of gov performance. Quality of life is evaluated annually and Zurich and Vancouver normally get top ratings.

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:47 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @peter @yogthos Did you know if a driver accidentally cripples someone they are personally responsible for paying the victim's health expenses for the rest of their life? And that that leads to drivers who deliberately killing those they accidentally hit in order to avoid the lifelong medical bills? Also, when a bystander sees someone injured they don't help (out of fear for being blamed)

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:02:47 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @yogthos @peter It's unclear way they don't blame their gov for that kind of manifestation

   • Peter (peter@mastodon.nl)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:17:10 UTC Peter

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog
     This whataboutism, doesn't lead us anywhere. I don't think you should be looking at the US for moral standards.

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   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:17:11 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @peter @yogthos Cops have internal biases they aren't aware of and thus not in control of. Beating someone until they confess is an overtly purposeful act -- you don't do it on accident or out of bad training, you do it because in fact the system forces you to. It's pushed down from above.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jan-2022 18:17:11 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter you're seriously arguing that cops in US will kill people in broad daylight, but they don't extract confessions through torture, I have a bridge to sell you

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:33:36 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog

     @peter @koherecoWatchdog China's system is not perfect, but it's absolute nonsense to call it autocratic.

     I recommend actually reading up on how the system works so that you can actually make an informed critique of it.

     some resources here https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#is-china-a-democracy

   • Peter (peter@mastodon.nl)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:33:36 UTC Peter

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog
     It wasn't my intention to criticise China's political system, there are people better suited to do so.
     I am merely commenting on your argumentation. And I believe judging the merit of a system on approval ratings of those who grew up in it and survived it is a very biased metric.

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   • skells@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:23 UTC skells

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter @yogthos
     "nothing close to such horrors have been documented in China"

     nothing like poor bookkeeping to improve "quality of life"

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   • skells@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:23 UTC skells

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog @peter jeeze, they're not even paying you?

     harsh indeed.

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   • skells@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:24 UTC skells

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @yogthos @koherecoWatchdog @peter tbf I'd be laughing too if I was paid to spout drivel to prop up China

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:24 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog
     • skells

     @skells @koherecoWatchdog @peter ah yes, being minimally informed on the subject I'm discussing means I'm a paid shill. I truly feel sorry for you bud. It's harsh being a victim of propaganda.

   • ☆ Dmitri ☭ (yogthos@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:25 UTC ☆ Dmitri ☭

     in reply to

     • koherecoWatchdog
     • skells

     @skells @koherecoWatchdog @peter 😂

   • skells@qoto.org's status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:46:26 UTC skells

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭
     • koherecoWatchdog

     @koherecoWatchdog @peter @yogthos truly this whole debate boils down to the fact that it's possible to audit US governance and not Chinese

     your entire arguement revolves around pointing out the absence of dirt in a darkened room

   • koherecowatchdog@freeradical.zone's status on Thursday, 14-Apr-2022 04:50:06 UTC koherecoWatchdog

     in reply to

     • ☆ Dmitri ☭

     @peter @yogthos We need to evolve to where climate action is a measure by which gov performance is judged, and this is inversely proportional to living the high life.