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1. Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 01:47:30 UTC Hallå Kitteh
   > The developers who are most likely to get stuck in Vim are front-end web developers: those who primarily visit tags like JQuery, CSS, and AngularJS. They’re followed by Microsoft developers (C# and SQL Server) and mobile (Android and iOS). These developers usually work with an IDE (Visual Studio, Eclipse, Xcode, and so on), rather than a plain text editor, so it makes sense that they’re relatively more likely to get “stuck” in Vim rather than to open it intentionally.
   
   https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/05/23/stack-overflow-helping-one-million-developers-exit-vim/
   
   /via https://identi.ca/renatocan/note/aMJX8XS_TSu1LVyOLEsN5g
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 01:49:03 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     This exchange is interesting:
     
     >> [ . . . ] We have too many so-called "developers" that have never used a real operating system in their life, and have no clue how to administer one. [ . . . ]
     
     > As a person who does DevOps, this doesn't bother me in the slightest. If a developer is really great at writing code and has zero idea how to log into the servers said code actually runs on, it makes my life easier.
     
     If that's your situation, aren't you really in ops, rather than devops?
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 02:03:52 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to
     Here's a dissenting view to my proposition:
     
     https://opensource.com/article/17/7/state-systems-administration
     
     This point of view is that devops was about teaching ops how to dev, and now it's time to teach dev how to ops, as if the positions were permanent.
     
     The way I always perceived it was that devops was about devs and small companies being tired of the overhead of having an ops team, and trying to do it all by themselves.
     
     With no ops team to defend their existence, devops had no qualms in trying to eliminate the position altogether, but in the end all that happened (like with all automation?) was that better ops was created/discovered, enabling more complex solutions like microservices, and now we're back at having ops, only at a higher level.
     
     At small companies, it's still about having devs do ops, but I think we're at a position where we know better what that means.
     
     And we're still waiting for #userops to happen.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 03:08:49 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Thomas Willingham
     @beardyunixer Nah. I learned ":q!" in the 90s.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 07:05:17 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • USB-loving k9
     @usbhump There are all kinds of make-your-own-website tools that I never tried and don't know the names of. It's been a long time since most people used a text editor and wrote HTML by hand.
     
     That said, most JavaScript people I know use vim. :-)
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2017 07:30:34 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • awg
     @awg I see nothing evil about either vim nor JS. They are not my tools of choice for all problems, but I do use them when I find it appropriate.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2017 07:38:18 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Vertigo
     @vertigo I don't think #devops is a mistake. It's a mistake made by some people to believe "this means we don't need to understand ops", but apart from that I think it's just the inevitable result of wanting to do more and do better, and getting better tools to do it. It does mean that opsers and devers near the divide need to understand each other better, but that's a pure plus in my book.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 03-Aug-2017 06:20:06 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Vertigo
     • USB-loving k9
     • roko (BEFORE dark)
     @roko @vertigo @aws @usbhump
     
     Same theme shows up in a microservices article:
     
     https://aadrake.com/posts/2017-05-20-enough-with-the-microservices.html
     
     > Remember, if you have a DevOps Team, then you are absolutely not doing DevOps.
     
     ... or are you?
     
     > Developers should be involved in managing everything about their applications, including infrastructure.
     
     ... or should they?
     
     4 days ago I would have agreed, but now my opinion is less clear-cut. :-)
     
     /via https://social.heldscal.la/notice/3265099
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2017 08:27:00 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Vertigo
     • pit dad
     • USB-loving k9
     • roko (BEFORE dark)
     @dthompson @vertigo @usbhump @roko I think my question is mainly semantical: Is #devops having Ops people who understand dev and who can apply code as configuration and automate ruthlessly? Or is DevOps having the Dev people do the Ops?
     
     I think it was the latter, and the hype (and the destructive form) is the latter, but the real productive outcome that has matured out of it is the former.
     
     So to comment on my own post #2 in this convo:
     
     > If that's your situation, aren't you really in ops, rather than devops?
     
     What if that isn't a contradiction? You're in Ops, and you're doing DevOps.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 06-Aug-2017 15:52:23 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     • Vertigo
     • pit dad
     • USB-loving k9
     • roko (BEFORE dark)
     @vertigo @dthompson @usbhump @roko You mean, devs usually do initial ops, and then hand it over to ops-ops at some point?