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1. Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 10:54:03 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

   No heroes, no masters.

   (Everyone can keep their gods because religious freedom is a cornerstone of liberty)

   • Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 12:20:40 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     No, but really, I want to talk about this:

     'No gods' is often a cover for anti-Semitism and islamaphobia (see: Charlie Hebdo)

     And the notion of 'heroes' is not only a core idea in ur-fascism (see: Umberto Eco's essay), but I'd guess that a lot of asshole behaviour by manarchists comes from their conception of self as heroic.

     If we see ourselves in solidarity rather than as liberators, we'll get a lot father and be less terrible.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 12:23:41 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     But also, the original idea behind 'No gods, no masters' was anti clerical power. And the problem of the clergy was that they wielded an enormous amount of political and economic power based partly on their connection to god. This knowing-god's-mind and carrying-out-god's-will is strongly akin to notions of heroism. Of course, the other source of their power is tradition, but that also figures into the heroic ideal.

     tl;dr: the slogan was really against heroism the whole time.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 12:26:46 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     And in other news, the US centre-left has had, for much of my life, a certain waiting-for-a-hero quality that was most strongly in evidence in the groundswell of support for Obama (and a lesser extend with Sanders). Once the hero arrives, everything is taken care of, so no need to, say, vote in further elections, or continue to protest the war. Everyone can take an 8 year holiday on pacifism (and wake up in 2016 wondering what happened).

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 12:28:21 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     Waiting for, supporting and relying on heroes is fundamentally passive and disempowering.

     Becoming heroic, by contrast, is TOO empowering and is a way of activating unearned power in the quest to force others into one's will.

     All heroes and heroics must be banished.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Cocoron 🍞 (cocoron@anticapitalist.party)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 16:44:44 UTC Cocoron 🍞

     in reply to

     @celesteh i have to disagree with this, sorry

     only someone from a background where they haven't been discriminated against or oppressed because of the religious beliefs of themselves or other people could make this logical leap of faith

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 16:48:13 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     • Cocoron 🍞

     @Cocoron Are you saying a person who has suffered religious discrimination (ie, an American Muslim) or someone who has been repressed by religion (ie a transgender person raised in a strictly catholic household)?

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Cocoron 🍞 (cocoron@anticapitalist.party)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 16:51:46 UTC Cocoron 🍞

     in reply to

     @celesteh I am saying this as someone raised as a Catholic in Northern Ireland where I watched my friends go to primary (elementary) school harrassed by right-wing protetants who threatened to bomb them, threw balloons of urine at them, and shoved priest/nun fetish pornography in their faces because they were children going to a catholic school in a protestant area

     and also as someone who has listened to catholic teachers day vile things about "the gays", including myself

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Cocoron 🍞 (cocoron@anticapitalist.party)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 16:53:45 UTC Cocoron 🍞

     in reply to

     @celesteh "no gods" is the cry of people like me have been oppressed horrendously throughout life because of organised religion and the fact that you would say that this act of agency somehow makes me a bigot against jews and muslims is downright ignorant

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 16:58:02 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     • Cocoron 🍞

     @Cocoron I've seen it used in practice against Jews and Muslims.

     I was brought up in a very conservative catholic household and was informed of being hell-bound and that was not a good time, at all. But I don't want to accidentally ally with people attacking vulnerable, minority religious groups in my desire to have freedom of non-religion.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Cocoron 🍞 (cocoron@anticapitalist.party)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 17:04:35 UTC Cocoron 🍞

     in reply to

     @celesteh Do you have some examples I could look at? I would be very interested in seeing how this is used against different religious groups, the perceived rise in bigotry in the left concerns me.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 17:12:00 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     • Cocoron 🍞

     @Cocoron The Charlie Hebdo covers with anti-Semitic/racist caricatures spring most immediately to mind.

     I've also read that this slogan is alienating to Muslims. There's a tendency among some white leftists to imagine that LGBT and Muslims are necessarily in conflict, but this ignores both the existence of LGBT Muslims and the need for (and existence of) solidarity of groups under attack by fascists.

     I think 'no masters' is already a cry for a pluralist/secular society.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Cocoron 🍞 (cocoron@anticapitalist.party)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 17:16:53 UTC Cocoron 🍞

     in reply to

     @celesteh i don't think any charlie hebdo publication ever bore the slogan 'no gods' so i don't get where this is coming from

     and organised religion of all shades has been used to justify oppression so i think a critical dosposition towards it is warranted

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.
   • Charles ☭ Hutchins (celesteh@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 15-May-2017 17:23:50 UTC Charles ☭ Hutchins

     in reply to

     • Cocoron 🍞

     @Cocoron The image in this cover is an example that might purport to treat religions the same, but uses racist images: https://andrewgripp.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/charlie_hebdo_cover_pope_rabbi_mullah.jpg?w=640

     I wrongly remembered that this had the words, 'Ni Dieu, ni maître!' on it. They have used that phrase, but not in this particular image.

     Claes Wallin (韋嘉誠) repeated this.