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Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 10:14:12 UTC Constance Variable
@bob @clacke @bsmall2 You can get "Debt" for free, btw: https://archive.org/details/Debt-The_First_5000_Years
In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 10:14:12 UTC from social.heldscal.la permalink
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1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
  
  Debt-The First 5000 Years : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
  
  from Internet Archive
  
  Debt-The First 5000 Years
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:17:36 UTC Constance Variable
  
  Got close to talking about ancap today, good the party ended before that happened.
  
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- Bob Mottram (bob@social.freedombone.net)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:20:15 UTC Bob Mottram
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  @lambadalambda probably best to leave the ancaps to stew in their own contradictions
  
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:22:15 UTC Constance Variable
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  @bob I would've taken the ancap side in this debate, probably. I'm a socialist and statist on GS, but for the real world I'm a right wing ancap.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:22:15 UTC permalink
  
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:22:37 UTC Constance Variable
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  @bob In the end, I'm probably just a contrarian...
  
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:45:17 UTC Constance Variable
  - Bob Mottram
  @bob Encountering it made me think about some things more deeply (like the morality of taxation / the state), but in the end, I also think it's not coherent.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:45:17 UTC permalink
  
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- Bob Mottram (bob@social.freedombone.net)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:54:34 UTC Bob Mottram
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  @lambadalambda Thing is, the state backs up with violence a lot of the supposedly "free trade" and "free contract" stuff which the Capitalists like to go on about. Without a state doing their dirty work the rich would have a much harder time living on their unearned income.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:54:34 UTC permalink
  
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:56:01 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bob @lambadalambda I'm not following. The only thing the government has to do to support free trade is to stop forbidding it.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 21:56:01 UTC permalink
- 災̷̡̆害̎̐͊の̴ͩ̅̔̏女̢ͭ̋͑ͨͤ͝王̡̂̔͆̾͘͟ (xj9@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 22:05:31 UTC 災̷̡̆害̎̐͊の̴ͩ̅̔̏女̢ͭ̋͑ͨͤ͝王̡̂̔͆̾͘͟
  - Bob Mottram
  @bob @lambadalambda there are some parts of #ancap that i agree with, such as the Non-Aggression Principle, but, in general, i don't think free markets alone do enough to decentralize and distribute economic power. i do think markets are useful, but corporations are nearly as powerful and dangerous as governments.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 22:05:31 UTC permalink
  
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Friday, 24-Mar-2017 22:08:45 UTC Constance Variable
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  - 災̷̡̆害̎̐͊の̴ͩ̅̔̏女̢ͭ̋͑ͨͤ͝王̡̂̔͆̾͘͟
  @xj9 @bob mainly, I don't see how powerful corporations wouldn't evolve/devolve into a pseudo-state, mainly feudal on character. The NAP is a great moral ideal, but seems like a bad axiom for building a society.
  
  In conversation Friday, 24-Mar-2017 22:08:45 UTC permalink
  
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- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 25-Mar-2017 05:05:29 UTC Brian Small
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  @clacke @lambadalambda @bob "The more free-market we get, the more bureaucrats we end up with" #Graeber
  http://qttr.at/1p56
  
  In conversation Saturday, 25-Mar-2017 05:05:29 UTC permalink
  
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 25-Mar-2017 08:45:09 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bsmall2 @lambadalambda @bob I don't see how that's the nature of free markets though, rather than the nature of government. The final, and most important, part of the article reads like mumbo-jumbo to me. Government is not regulating me to be an employee, the human tendency to value stability over risk is.
  
  In conversation Saturday, 25-Mar-2017 08:45:09 UTC permalink
- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 09:25:04 UTC Brian Small
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  @clacke @lambadalambda @bob Graeber's _Debt_ book is convincing that currency and markets started to fund as taxes to fund miilitaries.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 09:25:04 UTC permalink
  
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- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 09:28:41 UTC Brian Small
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  @clacke @lambadalambda @bob Viewing corporations as centrally planned economies most trade is moving parts over borders but inside the MNC.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 09:28:41 UTC permalink
  
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- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 12:30:44 UTC Brian Small
  - Bob Mottram
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  @bob @lambadalambda @clacke "The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist." #ARoy #TFriedman
  http://qttr.at/1r09
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 12:30:44 UTC permalink
  
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 15:50:44 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bsmall2 I buy that taxes are for funding militaries and that vertical corporations are planned economies, but I don't see how that relates to the idea that government regulates and enforces free trade into existence, other than by enforcing voluntary contractual obligations.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 15:50:44 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 15:58:12 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  - Hallå Kitteh
  Full context: """ In his book on globalization, The Lexus and the Olive Tree, Friedman says, and I quote, "The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist. McDonalds cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas...and the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps." """
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 15:58:12 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:00:57 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bsmall2 @lambadalambda @bob @dbrz @sonyam @xj9 Yes, ok, the government creates the free market in places outside its jurisdiction by bringing other governments to heel, but what it forces them to do isn't to regulate the free market into existance, but to stop keeping it from existing.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:00:57 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:02:36 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  - Hallå Kitteh
  ... that was in response to https://social.heldscal.la/notice/1411368 , not in response to lambda's post.
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:02:36 UTC permalink
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- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:04:25 UTC Constance Variable
  in reply to
  @clacke @bsmall2 @bob @xj9 @sonyam @dbrz Graeber argues the opposite (i.e. that there are no markets without governments) rather successfully. Read the book :)
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 16:04:25 UTC permalink
  
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:34:17 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob @xj9 @sonyam @dbrz
  
  Does he successfully argue how the Soviet government created the black markets inside Russia?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:34:17 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:35:13 UTC Hallå Kitteh
  in reply to
  @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob @xj9 @sonyam @dbrz I've heard the book mentioned before and it seems even more interesting now, plus it's available online for free. I will probably read it at some point. It's been bumped in the to-read list.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:35:13 UTC permalink
- Constance Variable (lambadalambda@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:47:26 UTC Constance Variable
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  @clacke @bob @bsmall2 @dbrz @sonyam @xj9 it's also just easy to read, really nice book.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:47:26 UTC permalink
  
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- shp (shpuld@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:48:35 UTC shp
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  @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob @xj9 @sonyam @clacke @dbrz
  >easy to read https://shitposter.club/attachment/541618
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 18:48:35 UTC permalink
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- 502 Bad Gateway (sonyam@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 21:45:47 UTC 502 Bad Gateway
  in reply to
  @clacke @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob @xj9 @dbrz Where is the PDF link?
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 21:45:47 UTC permalink
  
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- Former Bob Jonkman -- Please use the new server at https://gs.jonkman.ca (bobjonkmanformer@sn.jonkman.ca)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 21:53:22 UTC Former Bob Jonkman -- Please use the new server at https://gs.jonkman.ca
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  - Podcasting
  - Hallå Kitteh
  I want to read the Adam Smith books "Wealth of Nations" at some point. I just finished listening to the BBC "In Our Time" podcast on "Wealth of Nations": http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b052ln55 (yes, I'm over a year behind in my !podcasting listening)
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 21:53:22 UTC permalink
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  1. The Wealth of Nations, In Our Time - BBC Radio 4
    
    from BBC
    
    Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Adam Smith's economic treatise The Wealth of Nations.
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:17:56 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  - Former Bob Jonkman -- Please use the new server at https://gs.jonkman.ca
  @bobjonkman Good podcasts are timeless. And Adam Smith isn't getting any deader.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:17:56 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:19:51 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  - 502 Bad Gateway
  @sonyam
  
  There is one at https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf
  
  And also one at https://archive.org/details/Debt-The_First_5000_Years .
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:19:51 UTC permalink
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  1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
    
    Debt-The First 5000 Years : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
    
    from Internet Archive
    
    Debt-The First 5000 Years
  2. Untitled attachment
- LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864} (lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net)'s status on Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:34:50 UTC LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}
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  - Former Bob Jonkman -- Please use the new server at https://gs.jonkman.ca
  @bobjonkman Wealth of Nations is well worth the read.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 26-Mar-2017 22:34:50 UTC permalink
  
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- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 27-Mar-2017 08:28:44 UTC Brian Small
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  @lambadalambda @bob @clacke I saw support for Graeber's currency-military-market link in Mo Yan's novel Red Sorghum http://qttr.at/1pyy
  In conversation Monday, 27-Mar-2017 08:28:44 UTC permalink
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  1. From Mo Yan's Red Sorghum
    
    from diaspora* social network
    
    From Mo Yan's Red Sorghum On Heroes, and guns Adjutant Ren was a rarity, a true hero; unfortunately, heroes are fated to die young. Three months after he had walked so proudly away from the heroic gathering, his Browning pistol went off while he was cleaning it and killed him. The bullet entered his right eye and exited through his right ear, leaving half of his face covered with a metallic blue powder. A mere three or four drops of blood seeped out of his right ear, and by the time the people who heard the shot had rushed over, he was lying dead on the ground. On Hybrid Plants The part that had me thinking of Vandana Shiva on heirloom (open source) seeds and climate resilience: " High yield, with a bitter, astringent taste, it is the source of rampant constipation. Hybrid sorghum never seems to ripen. Its grey-green eyes seem never to be fully opened. They assume the name of sorghum, but are bereft of tall, straight stalks; they assume the name of sorghum, but are devoid of the daz...
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Monday, 27-Mar-2017 10:52:25 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bsmall2 @lambadalambda @bob I read "The Garlic Ballads", but I think I didn't finish it. Reading all his vivid scenes of disgust became too exhausting.
  
  In conversation Monday, 27-Mar-2017 10:52:25 UTC permalink
- Brian Small (bsmall2@quitter.se)'s status on Monday, 27-Mar-2017 11:10:53 UTC Brian Small
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  @lambadalambda @bob @clacke I made this pdf page for Japanese students after reading _Debt_'s part about Ja Buddhism: http://qttr.at/1r1u
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Mar-2017 08:04:52 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @bsmall2 @lambadalambda @bob
  "At the time no fewer than four separate currencies circulated in Northeast Gaomi, their strength and fluctuating value determined by the power of the issuing authority. Currency backed by military force constituted the greatest exploitation of the people, and Granddad was able to finance… by relying on this sort of concealed tyranny."
  
  In conversation Tuesday, 28-Mar-2017 08:04:52 UTC permalink
- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Mar-2017 08:08:44 UTC Hallå Kitteh
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  @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob The various military currencies in Civil War China have a lot in common with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_dollar , the war bonds emitted in support of the American Revolution and the Chinese Republic currency that Sun Yat-Sen sold in advance to fund the 1911 revolution.
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- Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Tuesday, 28-Mar-2017 13:01:18 UTC Hallå Kitteh
  in reply to
  @lambadalambda @bsmall2 @bob There is surprisingly no note of the evangelizing and fundraising activities of Dr. Sun on Wikipedia, neither on his page nor those of the various societies he joined or founded.
  
  I learned about it at the Sun Yat-Set Museum in Hong Kong. There are many fascinating stories there.
  
  In conversation Tuesday, 28-Mar-2017 13:01:18 UTC permalink

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