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1. b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 02:34:37 UTC b9AcE

   • dreezJ
   @dreezj To get what you describe, one would have to form a corporation (for the shares) and that owns a trust (sitftelse). That's… complex.
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   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 02:37:54 UTC b9AcE

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj We built/run https://cyklopen.se/english/ as an association (förening). To start a corporation with shares (AB) costs 50000 crowns.
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   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 02:39:20 UTC b9AcE

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj Well, keep in mind quitter.se is just one of VERY many in the federation of GNU Social operators: http://qttr.at/f8
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:03:55 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj Nobody owns a trust. The money of a trust is managed according to the trust's statutes, to fulfill the goals of the trust. No dividends. The statutes can say that a certain entity appoints management, but the government monitors that management works to fulfill the goals of the statutes.
   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:05:58 UTC b9AcE

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @clacke Worded it poorly for brevity. Sorry. Advantage of stiftelse is (AFAIK) bylaws can't change, but AB/förening can, thus combo. @dreezj
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   • dreezJ (dreezj@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:07:05 UTC dreezJ

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke Why can't a co-op have dividends? Can the line be drawn very clearly?   @b9ace
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:09:03 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj Ah. Yes.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:09:22 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj @b9ace I'm sure the line is a bit fuzzy. :-)
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:10:15 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj Some of the difference I'm describing may be more clear culturally than legally. And of course I don't know less about US law and customs.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:12:21 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj And yes, bylaws, not statutes. Pardon my English. :-)
   • dreezJ (dreezj@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:12:57 UTC dreezJ

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke @b9ace Yes, but culture and law can and should change and can and should be made to serve us, the public, not visa versa. (!)
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:15:00 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj @b9ace Oh yes, but also, words have meaning. Although, meanings change. The big cooperatives in Sweden have very complicated corporate structures and "cooperative" is not a protected legal term.
   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:17:23 UTC b9AcE

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @dreezj There's a difference speaking what exists and what one wants. ;-) I'm an anarchist, but I've also read law (amateur). @clacke
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:17:50 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj Indeed.
   • dreezJ (dreezj@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:19:37 UTC dreezJ

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke @b9ace Sure.  I 1st became aware of Mondragon in Spain and I believe it's similar re: complicated structure but still co-op"values".
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:21:47 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj @b9ace Sounds like it. "The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives"
     
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
   • dreezJ (dreezj@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:26:20 UTC dreezJ

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke See, couldn't this be a model for a social network federation? ... @b9ace
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:26:28 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj The Swedish mega-coop KF is a corporate business group with subsidiaries in retail, banking, investment etc, but the mother company is owned by regional customer cooperatives.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:43:32 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @dreezj @b9ace So, to go back to your original question, I'm not sure what a coop is going to solve in the federation case. An association accepting donations, or simply volunteers donating time and code to the software and to the services is what has been working well so far. The federation is still growing. Not to the billions, but with postActiv, Pleroma and Qvitter, I would say GNU Social is more lively than it has been for years.
     
     If you try to pull in big investments, there is a big risk of ruining it. The origin of GNU Social was StatusNet, a venture capital-funded corporation. Evan tried to earn money through enterprise deployments, but sadly was pushed out by Yammer and others. We are lucky (or Evan was skillful enough) that the company "failed" by quietly winding down, rather than VCs requiring desperate measures like putting up ads or selling user information.
     
     There is no big GNU Social boom, but there is also no crisis. Let's keep working calmly on extending and repairing the codebase and the network.
   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:43:33 UTC b9AcE

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @dreezj KF started as part of labor union/social democrat-movement in 1800s, so I think that's why shares can't be sold for profit. @clacke
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:45:32 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj If shares are created when you buy them, at a fixed price, and the coop buys them back at the same price, and destroys them, it's not really possible for a market of shares to emerge.
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:50:47 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj I would like to once more emphasize that I don't think #statusnet "failed". It gave us GNU Social. And it provided Evan with the experience that allowed him to create pump.io, which has been the structural starting point for the work on the new #ActivityPub W3C federated social network standard, one that may yet be added to GNU Social.
   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:53:02 UTC b9AcE

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @clacke Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm one of those weirdos that prefer the BSD license to the GNU license. ;-) @dreezj
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:54:17 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @dreezj You mean, speaking of pump.io?
   • b9AcE (b9ace@quitter.se)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 03:57:11 UTC b9AcE

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @clacke No, more like "If it's good, let it free & it will grow to aid all. Liberation can't be imposed (not via copyright either)". @dreezj
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   • majestyx (majestyx@gnusocial.no)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 10:06:13 UTC majestyx

     in reply to

     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @b9ace @clacke @dreezj hey Buddys take care about the !Linux kernel #gpl2 and the #gpl3 :-( http://gpl-violations.org in #clt2017 wie habe a very interrest talk about CC @fsfe
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 10:10:09 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • dreezJ
     @majestyx @fsfe @b9ace @dreezj What?
   • majestyx (majestyx@gnusocial.no)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 10:16:29 UTC majestyx

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     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @clacke @fsfe @b9ace @dreezj if somebody talk about the diff !Linux vs. !BSD you mist habe the !GPL 2/3 Problem in mind IMHO O:-) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why-gplv3.html
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Saturday, 18-Mar-2017 12:45:18 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • dreezJ
     @majestyx @fsfe @b9ace @dreezj
     
     The Linux people mainly rejected GPLv3 and that's it. There's also the additional possible of possible estoppel giving Linux basically a weak copyleft. But we'll see how the next round of Welte's court case goes.
     
     What's the "GPL 2/3 problem" and what's to "take care" about?
     
     Is the problem that Linux is not GPLv3? What about the Firefox "MPLv2 problem"?
     
     If Harald Welte held an interesting talk on Linux, licensing and enforcement, I would be interested to see it. Do you mean https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2017/de/programm/beitrag/311 ? They don't seem to provide videos. Do you know if videos will be up elsewhere?
     
     I don't see any direct connection to permissive licenses.
   • majestyx (majestyx@gnusocial.no)'s status on Sunday, 19-Mar-2017 12:46:46 UTC majestyx

     in reply to

     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • dreezJ
     @clacke @fsfe @b9ace @dreezj who are the "linux people" to disclaim GPL3? i am a fellow of fsfe. And if i give a takl about - the people a very interest in it. The Kernel is GPL2 e.g.: you or i buy a 'embedded linux device' - we can donload the source from manufactor, we can 'change' or patch the source, but we can't bring the code on our?! device #internetofshittythinks :-) - this is imho the GPL2/3 problem. - CLT yes yo right. i will write the orga team for records (IMHO only audio) especilay harald's talk! - permisive 'licence' is ( ok, i am a 'radical' ) a part of "artifical shortage" to make money with "public code/interesting" ps: thx for a very interessting discussion #ilovefs
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Monday, 20-Mar-2017 19:27:11 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • majestyx
     • Free Software Foundation Europe
     • dreezJ
     @majestyx @fsfe @b9ace @dreezj
     
     Linux the kernel. Kernel developers. Linus & Co rejected the v3.
     
     Ok, so by the "GPL 2/3 problem" you mean the limitations of the GPLv2. I would call that the "GPLv2 problem", as the only problem with the GPLv3 is that they're not using it. :-)
     
     Likewise, thank you!