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1. Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 14:33:12 UTC Annah

   • Verius
   @verius journalctl is the root of most of the problems I've had too.  I'd probably be fine if you could get rid of it and just use standard logging, to be honest, but short of hacking it out of the code and compiling the whole mess yourself, there isn't one I'm aware of.
   
   Runit is probably the alternative init system I like myself, because it replaces the init _and nothing else_.  It's short, it's portable, and it's easy to fuck around with.
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   • Verius (verius@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 13:41:04 UTC Verius
     The problem I have with anti-systemd sentiment is that it's often "the old ways are best". I don't agree with that. Old school init scripts are a pain. Systemd unit files improve on them in a lot of ways.
     
     However I fear systemd may eventually end up stopping progress towards better systems rather than accelerating it. With a systemd monoculture there's no real way to try alternative approaches at the large scale needed to learn if and where they provide sufficient benefits.
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   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 13:53:28 UTC Annah

     in reply to

     • Verius
     @verius My anti-systemd sentiment comes from having to repair numerous broken linux systems where it was either the reason that things broke or exacerbated existing problems significantly.
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   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 13:57:07 UTC Annah

     • Verius
     @verius That and the whole thing seems to involve more and more just ... stuff.  Some of it is useful and some of it isn't.  But you can't seperate the good stuff from the bad (at least with how ubuntu and debian package systemd, and I assume others) and the whole "removing the element of choice" thing just rubs me the wrong way.
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   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 13:58:09 UTC Annah

     in reply to

     • Verius
     @verius To be fair I don't know if that's a ubuntu/debian packaging thing or if it's just how systemd comes.
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   • Verius (verius@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 15:33:48 UTC Verius

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     @maiyannah I guess my use case is different. I don't want to fuck around with systems. I want them to work and not give me headache. And I want them to support modern container technology because otherwise the boss will mandate things like CoreOS which are _really_ a pain in the ass to work with.
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 16:01:22 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Verius
     @verius @maiyannah I haven't used CoreOS, but isn't the whole idea of it to not fuck around and to work well with containers?
   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 16:02:27 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Verius
     @maiyannah @verius systemd is a big pile of things. Andy Wingo had to fork it and cut things away to provide logind for guix.
   • Pietro Gagliardi (andlabs@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 16:07:00 UTC Pietro Gagliardi

     in reply to

     • Verius
     • Hallå Kitteh

     @clacke @verius @maiyannah fwiw my problems with systemd are: arrogance of its main devs (LKML is great for this) and the fact that we're making it a voluntary monopoly

     is there no third option?

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   • Annah (maiyannah@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 16:30:13 UTC Annah

     in reply to

     • Verius
     • Hallå Kitteh
     • Pietro Gagliardi
     @andlabs @verius @clacke There's several, but they all get drowned out by systemd.  At least one of them was pretty much literally run off by the systemd cultists.
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   • Verius (verius@community.highlandarrow.com)'s status on Wednesday, 15-Mar-2017 17:04:35 UTC Verius

     in reply to

     • Hallå Kitteh
     @clacke @maiyannah Yes. The problems happen when you're trying to use it without being fully at container scale. CoreOS is basically designed to be a layer in a Kubernetes cluster or a similar high level cattlefarm (i.e. automated provisioning of new machines, don't care if a machine is down for a few minutes).
     
     It doesn't work so well when it runs services which are started manually through docker. One particular problem is that CoreOS applies updates by rebooting and if you happen to forget to enable a service (systemd) or set a restart policy (docker) that service won't come back up.
     
     CoreOS also has the nice feature that it doesn't support proper tools like a full featured vim. It has that within a container but due to systemd interaction with containers you cannot access the host systemd from within that container, which makes all kind of sysadminning very painful.
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   • Hallå Kitteh (clacke@social.heldscal.la)'s status on Thursday, 16-Mar-2017 12:11:02 UTC Hallå Kitteh

     in reply to

     • Verius
     @verius @maiyannah Ok, that all makes sense. Thanks for explaining. #coreos